Wet sumping cure - oil flow rate query

htown16 · May 29, 2017

Wonder what the complete story was on the CNW AMR mod failures. Like I said, mine will leak down a little over a months time but not enough to require draining and I once let the bike sit six months and needed to drain the sump. If you expect it never to leak down at all over any time period then maybe that is a "failure". But if you ride the bike on a fairly regular basis and don't have to drain the sump every time, I would call it a success.

worntorn · May 29, 2017

I believe Matt said that about half the bikes he sent out were like yours and the other half still leaked down quite quickly. He wanted a 100% fix.

I agree, if you can get the drip slowed enough, live with it. I start my Mk3 and BSA up a couple of times thru the winter and that does it. At that the oil tanks are still half full, so no smoke on startup.
Some of the others ones I have here are a bit incontinent, or were before my fix.

Glen

Deets55 · May 29, 2017

kommando said:
I am working on an updated AMR, it uses X ring seals in the oil pump to double up on sealing surfaces and a 1/4" EPDM ball instead of steel ball, just waiting on the balls which are now promised for July. Previous work on using an airline non return shows that if either the seat or the ball are rubber the seal is more reliable than steel to steel (one small piece of dirt gives a leak), that leaves final decision is on what to do with the pump outlet, leave as flat ended tube or machine it with a ball cutter to match the ball shape.

I suggest that you leave it flat. I think it will seal better against a sharp or smaller edge. Most of the carb inlet needle/seats I have seen have a flat seat that a tapered needle sits in.
Pete

pantah_good · May 29, 2017

At this point I don't know if my engine is going to be a wet sumper or not, although I got the oil pump AMR modified. I gather there are pro and con opinions about just starting the engine up if it has wet sumped. Alternatively, draining the sump and putting it back in the oil tank sounds like a p.i.t.a., and any kind of a valve is out of the question for me. I am wondering if cycling the kick start lever with the key off to refill the oil tank might be more "fun", or could that be even more time consuming?

auldblue · May 29, 2017

fastbackboy said:
No, my post is not a wind up - just a newbie stepping into a minefield! The AMR mod looks good but I am in England so means shipping the bits over to the US and back.

Thanks to all for your posts and to Slick for answering the question posed (putting my mind at rest about the flow rate).

Sorry about raising so many blood pressures on this one!
Cheers,
Chris.

No offence ment but this post is like a cross between pulp fiction and twin peaks. My Trident has non return valve on it with an oil light ,my 71 bike has one also ,again with an oil light never any problems. The amount of engines that have seized with NRV is just astounding but how many owners would admit to their shortcomings that perhaps contributed to engine failure Is practically nil.

My 69 does not wet sump( five months anyway) doesn't leak or use oil, some think that's a wynd up even guys at bike meets comment and ask if there is oil in it. All the expert opinions are on display so it's your choice. I say do whatever makes you happy and doesn't wreck your pride and joy!!

Still think it's a wynd up though.

cliffa · May 29, 2017

worntorn said:
On a Vincent special.

I would say VERY special, more pictures please !! ( of the bike not the valve)

cheers,

cliffa.

worntorn · May 29, 2017

Cliff, I best not clog this Commando thread with Vincent pics, so here's the link to the rolling chassis construction

project-t11902.html

And the motor

vincent-1360-t19100.html

MikeM · May 29, 2017

Check the oil and drain if needed. Deal with it.

Steves · May 29, 2017

Simple, quick and (I think) fool proof. Put a decent valve in and an oil pressure guage. Stops wet sumping and tells you pressure downstream of the pump.

Oil line valves have been used before, nothing wrong with this. Or just live with it and drain the crankcase every start (er no), or just fire it up and let the engine sort itself out, though I think this then raises other issues like smoking cylinders, fouled plugs etc.

Rebuild the pump, it's the bleeding summer!!

Stillreel · May 29, 2017

https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/anti-wetsump-peace-of-mind-switch.21784/#post-325211

Bernhard · May 30, 2017

If you must use a ball valve then use one with a 3/8 inch diameter ball-RGM sell them for Nortons, but don’t forget to use a Clear oil pipe to the oil pump and remember to prime this pipe with oil first this is VERY Important. And check this pipe has NO leaks and is full of oil every time you start the engine up
However I would check over the oil pump and the surrounding parts first, I have come across the cast iron plate standing proud of the flat part of the pump, this prevented the pump seating flat onto the crankcase body.
Rubber O ring on crankcase/oil pump must be replaced every time you remove the timing cover.

JimC · May 30, 2017

Most mods are to improve the performance and/or reliability of the Norton. Putting a valve in the input line to the oil pump is the antithesis. Even the Gyro Gearloose switches and wires are trading a small problem for the potential of a complete destruction of the engine. Three letters: AMR.

cliffa · May 30, 2017

worntorn said:
Cliff, I best not clog this Commando thread with Vincent pics, so here's the link to the rolling chassis construction

project-t11902.html

And the motor

vincent-1360-t19100.html

Why do I feel so inadequate whenever I start looking at Access Norton ?

Absolutely awesome. I have just spent the past hour reading the whole thread.

Build me one !!

Good choice on the 955 seat by the way, I had one for 5 years, never had any discomfort. One day my mate & I were out together & decided to swap bikes for a while. He had a Ducati 998. Within 10 miles I was in agony and begging for my bike back at every traffic light we stopped for.

Cheers & thanks,

cliffa.

MikeG · May 30, 2017

o0norton0o said:
Certainly everyone has a right to their opinion,... IMO, commando's have more than one design problem than just wet sumping. The good thing is that using a Comstock sump breather solves the oil leak down problem AND the crankcase pressure problem at the same time. The reason that parallel twins have a history of being leaky bikes is related to trying to seal a crankcase that develops a lot of internal air pressure. The comstock breather relieves this pressure... It couldn't be any simpler to cure the crankcase pressure issue and pump the sumped oil straight back to the oil tank when you start the bike...

*I actually don't have a comstock breather because it doesn't fit early framed bikes because of a crossmember on the frame, but if it fits your bike you should get one and forget about blocking the oil lines with some mechanism.

It works GREAT on mine.

xbacksideslider · May 30, 2017

With a reed valve down below, I kick it through until I can hear/see the breather pumping oil into the oil tank; after 10 to 15 kicks, it's pretty much pumped dry.

I would be better to fix it . . . . yeah. I have lots of things I ought to do.

chaztuna · May 30, 2017

kommando said:
I am working on an updated AMR, it uses X ring seals in the oil pump to double up on sealing surfaces and a 1/4" EPDM ball instead of steel ball, just waiting on the balls which are now promised for July. Previous work on using an airline non return shows that if either the seat or the ball are rubber the seal is more reliable than steel to steel (one small piece of dirt gives a leak), that leaves final decision is on what to do with the pump outlet, leave as flat ended tube or machine it with a ball cutter to match the ball shape.

Could you explain your choice of EPDM? It is poorly rated for use with petroleum products. See

http://www.marcorubber.com/material_chart.htm

Surely, Viton or another rubber would prove a better choice?

kommando · May 31, 2017

Mineral oils do not go near my engine, synthetic oils are compatible with EDPM.

chaztuna · May 31, 2017

kommando said:
Mineral oils do not go near my engine, synthetic oils are compatible with EDPM.

I'm curious where you got this information. No mention of a differentiation for synthetic oils below [Limitations section]

http://www.marcorubber.com/downloads/Ma ... -E1000.pdf

http://www.marcorubber.com/downloads/Ma ... -E1005.pdf

http://www.marcorubber.com/downloads/Ma ... -E1097.pdf

I'm not saying you are wrong. I just don't see the data in the compounds listed above. I'm always willing to learn. Peroxide cured EPDM is the material of choice for use in glycol [DOT 3 & DOT 4] based brake fluids.

kommando · May 31, 2017

You can google until you are blue in the face, not all compatibility charts cover Synthetic oils and those that do vary between the same as mineral or compatible A. As the order is on back order its academic, if they do not send them shortly I will go to nitride, no viton available either.

Lannis · Jun 3, 2017

worntorn said:
auldblue said:

I personally think that this post is a wynd up , as you know that this subject is controversial . Good luck and how's your bike running Phil!

Click to expand...

If it is a wind up, it worked. We have Lannis shouting in Capitals and labelling those with differing views as dummies.

Glen

"Capital", not "Capitals". I only capitalized one word, that's not much shouting.

And yes, I am amazed when people solve their painful knee by smacking themselves in the head with a stick so they'll forget about their knee. "Dummy" is your word, not mine, but I'll go along with it if you insist .....

Lannis

Wet sumping cure - oil flow rate query

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