Wet sumping - better to leave it?

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acadian said:
Have not tried a rotary in the triumph (morgo or SRM), but have heard anecdotal evidence that they flow a bit too much oil. Maybe SRM or morgo could be convinced to design a pump for Nortons?
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It kinda depends what you mean buy ‘too much’ oil really I’d say.

Yes, in a normal road bike, they probably flow more oil than needed (therefore too much) hence I don’t have one in either of my current Triumphs.

But in modified motors they can be useful, the higher flow ends up being dumped into the sump, and as most of the engine is lubricated by splash, this can be a good thing.

The extra flow and pressure also allows a mod to pressure feed the rockers, getting more oil up to the head without risk of starving the big ends.

And, a big potential benefit is cooling, all that extra oil sloshing around can have a very big impact on engine running temps. This cured a overheating problem for me once in a modified 8 valve engine.

So, I believe they do have potential benefits, but agree most road bikes just don’t need those potential benefits.

They also turn your Triumph into a potential wet sumper !!
 
I have owned god knows how many triumph twins
I have never had one wet sump or heard of it with a plunger pump ,there must be something badly wrong there
 
acotrel said:
Old Triumphs do not wet sump. It might be better to make a plunger oil pump which is similar to that in a Triumph.
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Old Triumph twins may not wet sump but my old Triumph triple will empty the whole tank if it sits long enough.
 
Triton Thrasher said:
Same old story. Interlocks work until the day you need them.
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I would like to know how my interlock could fail. It doesnt contain an electrical switch.
For those that do have switches built in, the number of engines blown up by these over the years, as reported here, is zero.



Glen
 
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worntorn said:
I would like to know how my interlock could fail. There's no electrical switch in it.
For those that do have switches built in, the number of engines blown up by these over the years, as reported here, is zero.


Glen
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No one who is not familiar with your switch, can answer that, Glen.

You should make them, or license them to be made by someone else .... Madass comes to mind.

Slick
 
worntorn said:
I would like to know how my interlock could fail. It doesnt contain an electrical switch.
For those that do have switches built in, the number of engines blown up by these over the years, as reported here, is zero.



Glen
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I don’t know what your interlock is.
 
Triton Thrasher said:
Triumphrat forum is full of dopes.

If a Triumph twin drains oil to the crankcase when parked up, it has a dangerous fault, such as the pump coming loose, or a leaking ball valve.

What Triumphs, with their ball valves in the pump, are vulnerable to is “real” wet sumping, i.e. the scavenge system failing while you’re riding the bike. It’s only likely to happen immediately after engine repairs or disturbance of the sump gauze. It’s also not impossible for the feed side of the pump to fail the same way. Seen it once.

The reason racers tried different pumps in Triumphs is because the Triumph oil pump has a low delivery rate. I don’t think it would work on a Commando.
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You are right of course "real" wet sumping is when the scavenge can't overcome the feed whilst running
But "wetsumping" IE when the oil drains from the oil tank whilst parked is in common use now
 
worntorn said:
The only ignition key for the bike is manually locked in the valve until the oil flow is turned on.

Glen
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Do you use a key to release the key that turns the ignition on?
IE can anyone just release your key and start your bike?
 
I only need to use the valve for storage in my shop. The oil is on and the key in ignition or in my pocket when bike is in use or parked in public.
The ignition key for the bike is also a removeable handle which turns oil on. So no other key needed.
Maybe a picture would help.


Here it is, oil off. Key is across flow and locked in. Turn key in line to oil on position so key can be removed to start bike.

 
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This is a most interesting debate, but I'll stick with gear pumps & their shortcomings due to the reliability and good flow rate. Had excellent service from them over the years in hyd. systems.... simplicity, decent service life, etc. Gerotor/geroller types did well also, although PD types were OK they did have higher replacement costs and were usually total losses upon failure(axial piston, etc.).... They were real jewels when working until they didn't. Just my $.02 on matters.... Gear types tend to have lower replacement cost and many time successfully can be repaired for reliable service.....
Gear pumps also generally just quit working and don't disintegrate into pieces pushing them through the system in my experience...., but we're talking hyd. oil here.... So is there any great difference I ask? Haven't had a Norton pump apart, but the old HD had woodruff keys to shear off. Now('70's) they used gerotors.
 
Worntorn pic.
Wet sumping - better to leave it?
 
OK The bloke who is doing up my engine said to put RGM wet sumping valve on it and has ordered one. He has always had on his bike and said they work good. He also said if sitting for a number of months to put oil down the intake pipe.
I am reading that these can fail but has anyone actually had one fail?
 
Don't wish to sound cynical, but if the guy doing up your engine did a good job it shouldn't need one, no?
 
Hey Jim, Yes leave it.

Hard to hurt a high performance tractor engine like the Norton twin.

I had my timing cover off recently and took that ball bearing and spring gimmick out of it. It never did work on my Atlas turned Combat motor, and my oil in the tank is less aerated from the return oil with the bearing gone. I took the bike out and thrashed on it. Old horse ran great without the bearing and spring.
 
Time out! Everyone return to your corner.
How about if everyone does whatever they damn well please without anyone else calling them for being dumb.
End the thread as it is going nowhere.
Stuffa said:
OK The bloke who is doing up my engine said to put RGM wet sumping valve on it and has ordered one. He has always had on his bike and said they work good. He also said if sitting for a number of months to put oil down the intake pipe.
I am reading that these can fail but has anyone actually had one fail?
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I have heard of some types of these valves failing, though I haven't heard of an RGM valve failing. I had one installed for 12 years.
BUT, I removed it and replaced it with a manual ball valve with ignition interlink.
 
CanukNortonNut said:
Jim,
You also do one for the combat type. what tests have you done with that unit.
Or who has one that can report?
T
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Yes, I have one a Combat.
Typical Norton fashion, it needed a little 'fettling'.
Notice my case is not drilled level, and Jim's breather holes are offset.
Wet sumping - better to leave it?
Wet sumping - better to leave it?


You can see the lower section of the breather daylighted on the bottom of the case.
The breather is two piece, I flipped the face of the breather 180 with the offset at the top., and spigot point up.
Sorry, no pictures..
Here's the final install, Clocked a little to the Port side. Works fine.

Wet sumping - better to leave it?
 
MichaelB said:
Yes, I have one a Combat.
Typical Norton fashion, it needed a little 'fettling'.
Notice my case is not drilled level, and Jim's breather holes are offset.
View attachment 17635View attachment 17640

You can see the lower section of the breather daylighted on the bottom of the case.
The breather is two piece, I flipped the face of the breather 180 with the offset at the top., and spigot point up.
Sorry, no pictures..
Here's the final install, Clocked a little to the Port side. Works fine.

View attachment 17644
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Yes the breather hole is offset but its not a problem because you only need a passageway that is about 3/8" in area because that's all the barbed fitting ID has anyway - and even with the offset you have more than that (you can check it with the gasket). The internal passage way is also about 3/8". I think its fine that you reversed the 2 parts of the breather 180 degree but I don't think it matters either way. I offset it towards the bottom in case it scavenges more oil that way (a benefit for wet sumped motors).

The thing about reed breathers is that once the air is pumped out of the crank case, it prevents air from coming back in. So air goes out and stays out. Once the air is out, there is a partial vacuum on the up stroke and hardly any air is pumped out on the down stroke. Very little pumping in and out which is the whole idea. Any good reed valve will provide this advantage and there are several different brands on the market. See the difference in this vid.
 
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