Wet sumping - better to leave it?

acotrel · Jul 14, 2020

Old Triumphs do not wet sump. It might be better to make a plunger oil pump which is similar to that in a Triumph.

ashman · Jul 14, 2020

swooshdave said:
It takes you longer than 30 seconds to find the wrench, find the pan, and then crawl under the bike. So I doubt you’re riding in a minute. I’m sure a video will prove me wrong.

I never said I was riding in a minute, what I said is it only takes 30 seconds to unscrew and I do it the night before if its wet sumped, and I don't crawl under my bike I know where the sump plug is and right size ring spanner goes in place without laying on the floor, its OK if you want to nit pick what I say all good, if mine did wet sump from letting it sit for a few months I remove the drain plug the night before my ride and refit in the morning and refill the oil tank while I do other maintenance checks, tyre pressures, chain lube if its needed, fuel in the tank, you do that with any bike that has sat.
My Norton was a everyday ride most of the 45 years of ownership so never had any problems with wet sumping, first time it did was one of my floats stuck open and filled my sump up with fuel (forgot to turn off my fuel tap when parked over night) and the second time was when left to sit for over 6 months when I brought my new 2013 Thruxton, so not bad for only 2 times in 45 years, my Norton is now semi retired and my 1200 Thruxton is now my every day rider, but the Norton still gets run regularly without having to drain the sump.

Ashley

Bernhard · Jul 14, 2020

acotrel said:
Old Triumphs do not wet sump. It might be better to make a plunger oil pump which is similar to that in a Triumph.

What a strange reply to all Norton owners when it was considered an improvement to fit a Manx oil pump in place of the Triumph plunger, even if it meant welding a blister to the Triumph timing cover.

998cc · Jul 14, 2020

swooshdave said:
Did you have the pressure relief valve work done too?

Dave.
Yes. I had that done as well.
Regards,
~998cc

swooshdave · Jul 14, 2020

Bernhard said:
What a strange reply to all Norton owners when it was considered an improvement to fit a Manx oil pump in place of the Triumph plunger, even if it meant welding a blister to the Triumph timing cover.

Keep in mind it's not just the pump that the oil leaks past.

Once it goes through the pump on the pressure side doesn't it take two paths, to the end of the crank and also to the pressure relief valve and rocker feed? If it leaks to the pressure relief valve area doesn't that dump back into the timing case?

And maybe on the Triumphs they can't leak from the pressure side to the crankcase?

worntorn · Jul 14, 2020

Over on Triumph.rat, there are all kinds of Meridian Triumph owners discussing their frustration and fixes with wetsumping. Seems Triumph motors wetsump just as frequently as Norton, BSA, Matchless, Vincent etc.

Glen

swooshdave · Jul 14, 2020

worntorn said:
Over on Triumph.rat, there are all kinds of Meridian Triumph owners discussing their frustration and fixes with wetsumping. Seems Triumph motors wetsump just as frequently as Norton, BSA, Matchless, Vincent etc.

Glen

Well, out goes that theory.

jbruney · Jul 14, 2020

I like looking at this as having no restrictions in the oil feed line.... Kind of hard to beat old tech. This way there's no lag time as the pump picks up a prime. Optimism is a blessing.... just like a peek in the tank before a ride.

Triton Thrasher · Jul 15, 2020

worntorn said:
Over on Triumph.rat, there are all kinds of Meridian Triumph owners discussing their frustration and fixes with wetsumping. Seems Triumph motors wetsump just as frequently as Norton, BSA, Matchless, Vincent etc.

Glen

Triumphrat forum is full of dopes.

If a Triumph twin drains oil to the crankcase when parked up, it has a dangerous fault, such as the pump coming loose, or a leaking ball valve.

What Triumphs, with their ball valves in the pump, are vulnerable to is “real” wet sumping, i.e. the scavenge system failing while you’re riding the bike. It’s only likely to happen immediately after engine repairs or disturbance of the sump gauze. It’s also not impossible for the feed side of the pump to fail the same way. Seen it once.

The reason racers tried different pumps in Triumphs is because the Triumph oil pump has a low delivery rate. I don’t think it would work on a Commando.

Triton Thrasher · Jul 15, 2020

swooshdave said:
The best reason to avoid a contraption like that is the micro switch can fail. As long as you trust the switch you’ll be fine. How good of quality is your switch?

Same old story. Interlocks work until the day you need them.

robs ss · Jul 15, 2020

swooshdave said:
The best reason to avoid a contraption like that is the micro switch can fail. As long as you trust the switch you’ll be fine. How good of quality is your switch?

While I won't fit an in-line valve - for reasons expoused by many here - I don't agree with your logic on this.
It is possible to set up a switch so that it fails safe. That is, if the switch fails, the bike won't start.

olympus · Jul 15, 2020

Plunger pumps....only when you've worked with these do you appreciated how advanced the gear pump on the Norton is

Fast Eddie · Jul 15, 2020

olympus said:
Plunger pumps....only when you've worked with these do you appreciated how advanced the gear pump on the Norton is

Maybe. But, TT‘s point was that unless there is a problem, generally speaking a Triumph plunger pump will not wet sump like a Norton does.

My ’68 T120 can seemingly sit indefinitely without the oil tank level dropping. When I bought the bike the PO had had it in storage, unused, for a few years. It still hadn’t wet slumped.

Bernhard · Jul 15, 2020

Fast Eddie said:
Maybe. But, TT‘s point was that unless there is a problem, generally speaking a Triumph plunger pump will not wet sump like a Norton does.

My ’68 T120 can seemingly sit indefinitely without the oil tank level dropping. When I bought the bike the PO had had it in storage, unused, for a few years. It still hadn’t wet slumped.

Could it be, because it's not been used for such a long time, that the plungers have seized???

Fast Eddie · Jul 15, 2020

Bernhard said:
Could it be, because it's not been used for such a long time, that the plungers have seized???

Maybe. But if so, they freed off and work fine. And still don’t wet sump when left unused.

So probably not.

trident sam · Jul 15, 2020

Fast Eddie said:
Maybe. But if so, they freed off and work fine. And still don’t wet sump when left unused.

So probably not.

In all the years I owned my T140, it never wet sumped when left unused. the triples however with their rotary gear pumps are a different kettle !

Triton Thrasher · Jul 15, 2020

Bernhard said:
Could it be, because it's not been used for such a long time, that the plungers have seized???

Of course not. I don’t think you’re being serious.

acadian · Jul 15, 2020

Triton Thrasher said:
If a Triumph twin drains oil to the crankcase when parked up, it has a dangerous fault, such as the pump coming loose, or a leaking ball valve.

What Triumphs, with their ball valves in the pump, are vulnerable to is “real” wet sumping, i.e. the scavenge system failing while you’re riding the bike. It’s only likely to happen immediately after engine repairs or disturbance of the sump gauze. It’s also not impossible for the feed side of the pump to fail the same way. Seen it once.

The reason racers tried different pumps in Triumphs is because the Triumph oil pump has a low delivery rate. I don’t think it would work on a Commando.

Have to agree, the only issues I've ever had with the Morgo twin chamber pump in my Tirumph has been crud getting past the oil filter and fouling the ball seat. Bike has never sumped, period.

olympus said:
Plunger pumps....only when you've worked with these do you appreciated how advanced the gear pump on the Norton is

Not sure I agree. My triumph pump will maintain 15+ psi at hot idle, how many Norton pumps are capable of that? Have not tried a rotary in the triumph (morgo or SRM), but have heard anecdotal evidence that they flow a bit too much oil. Maybe SRM or morgo could be convinced to design a pump for Nortons?

Triton Thrasher said:
Triumphrat forum is full of dopes.

Yup, best to stick with BB for triumph and BSA intel

Mike40M · Jul 15, 2020

Of my 8 British bikes, two is not wetsumping. The Manx as I drain it after each race. And the 650SS because it has not yet got any oil in the oil tank.

worntorn · Jul 15, 2020

So 8 out of 8 if oil is added.
Similar to my herd.
The Vincents have plunger pumps but still wet sump eventually.

Glen

Wet sumping - better to leave it?

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