The birth of a Seeley Norton

o0norton0o said:
So, you basically have over 50 HP at the rear wheel at 4,500 RPM and right around 75 HP at 6,000 RPM. I'm sure my stock commando feels like a moped next to that... That's an impressive powerband, I bet it surprises the shit out of other racers. If you ever take any video of it in a race, I'd love to see that... again, thanks for sharing your build.
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He biggest difference doesn't usually come from the motor. It is the light weight and the steering. Within reason, any motor will get you going fast enough to be competitive, if you have the right gearing. If you rely on horsepower to win races, there are always other guys who can outride you in the corners and get going earlier as they come onto the next straight. Of course if you have got the light bike, good handling and gearing and the more powerful motor, life is much easier. But getting it all together is not so easy. What interests me are the races between Kenny Cummins and Doug MacRae. Doug seems to be behind the 8-ball with the Commando frame etc. , but he does extremely well against Kenny with the Seeley.
 
o0norton0o said:
So, you basically have over 50 HP at the rear wheel at 4,500 RPM and right around 75 HP at 6,000 RPM. I'm sure my stock commando feels like a moped next to that... That's an impressive powerband, I bet it surprises the shit out of other racers. If you ever take any video of it in a race, I'd love to see that... again, thanks for sharing your build.
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Not racing yet but at the Donnington track day, I was passing things like GS1000s on the straight, and that with a new motor and badly set ignition timing, so more to come now the timing is sorted.

I noticed on track that the bike runs real well from 4000 rpm up.

The trip to the dyno was to make sure the bike is fuelling right, the power is what it is, once the fuelling is right. By the time the engine was revving above 4000 rpm, it was WOT so the rich dip at 5500 must be caused by something other than jetting, I don't see it as a problem though and didn't feel the dip in the power on the track.

The guys at Minnovation were impressed by the motor and did say that their dyno is a true Yorkshire dyno, ie: a bit tight with it's numbers. :) I see the dyno as a development tool not an accurate way of measuring HP, so if I was to make any changes in search of more power, then i would use the same dyno and if possible the same operator, then the difference between the figures, not the figures themselves would be the useful information.

Having said that, I am happy with it as is and won't be chasing power, it gets very expensive for little returns at this level.

Hmm, video, now where am i going to fit them.
 
acotrel said:
He biggest difference doesn't usually come from the motor. It is the light weight and the steering. Within reason, any motor will get you going fast enough to be competitive, if you have the right gearing. If you rely on horsepower to win races, there are always other guys who can outride you in the corners and get going earlier as they come onto the next straight. Of course if you have got the light bike, good handling and gearing and the more powerful motor, life is much easier. But getting it all together is not so easy. What interests me are the races between Kenny Cummins and Doug MacRae. Doug seems to be behind the 8-ball with the Commando frame etc. , but he does extremely well against Kenny with the Seeley.
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Agreed, there are quite a few guys that have found they can lap quicker on G50s or Manxes than on the bigger engined bikes, power is sometimes not all it is cracked up to be. How many guys on the Isle of Man have said they prefer the Superstock bike over the full fat Superbike and go faster on the Superstock.

I think that bike of Doug Macrae's is well sorted, probably not that much difference between that and the Seeley.
 
I absolutely agree...

You’ll go much faster with a 500 Dommie motor. A mates got one under the bench. I’ll do you the great favour of swapping it with you and taking that slow big motor off of your hands.

When shall I pop around...?
 
Certainly you probably wont be faster if you TRADE good handling for more HP, but if you have good handling, then more HP should add to your advantage especially if you get that extra HP without adding any weight to the bike...

As I said, my 47 HP stock commando would be like a moped racing against Storm's 75HP bike no matter how good it handles...
 
I think there is a big difference in weight between a stock Commando and a Seeley. On a tight circuit, a good A-grade rider on a Manx or G50 can give a mediocre rider on a much bigger bike a very bad fright. However on a big circuit, the more powerful bike must win.
 
Fast Eddie said:
I absolutely agree...

You’ll go much faster with a 500 Dommie motor. A mates got one under the bench. I’ll do you the great favour of swapping it with you and taking that slow big motor off of your hands.

When shall I pop around...?
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Hmm, errr, no. :) At the moment it isn't about lap times for me, its about fun and I enjoy the bigger engined bikes.

When we were allowed guns, my target pistol of choice was my 44 magnum, and when ever one was available I would also shoot 45 ACP weapons. Without doubt a dedicated small bore target pistol was more accurate but I just didn't enjoy shooting them. Same with bikes.
 
o0norton0o said:
Certainly you probably wont be faster if you TRADE good handling for more HP, but if you have good handling, then more HP should add to your advantage especially if you get that extra HP without adding any weight to the bike...

As I said, my 47 HP stock commando would be like a moped racing against Storm's 75HP bike no matter how good it handles...
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That sort of works to a point, as you have noticed my engine has a large spread of power and isn't in any way vicious in how it delivers that power, but if it made more power then the power band would be smaller and then keeping it on the boil can be difficult and unless somebody like Bruce Anstey or Michael Dunlop was riding it then it would be possible to go slower. would still be fun though.
 
acotrel said:
I think there is a big difference in weight between a stock Commando and a Seeley. On a tight circuit, a good A-grade rider on a Manx or G50 can give a mediocre rider on a much bigger bike a very bad fright. However on a big circuit, the more powerful bike must win.
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I was thinking the same rider on different bikes. I used to spanner for my mates back in the day and as they got better riders and started taking the odd race win on their TZ 350s, 3 of them changed to bigger bikes, one bought an RG 500 another had a reverse cylinder TZ 500 and one had a TZ 750. Non of them bettered their TZ 350 lap times round Cadwell.

I take your point about the bigger circuits but I guess the bottom line is, it is easier to ride a smaller less powerful bike closer to its limit than a bigun, and the little TZs were very capable bikes.
 
Riders adjust to their bikes and tend to ride around any handling problems. However a good bike makes a good rider, a bad one teaches you how to avoid crashes by crashing you or at least scaring you. It is the difference between leading by encouragement or leading by coercion. With my Seeley, I have been lucky with the steering geometry - it's handling inspires a lot of confidence. If I had started racing with it in the 1960s, I would have been unbeatable in Allpowers races. The motor is nothing, but from experience I know it is fast enough to win. If riding the bike is easy, race strategy becomes a minor consideration. As an older rider, I have a few advantages. In a race a good start is essential, however most guys back off for the first corner. I always take it at full race speed and turn under the others. A lot of young guys are very tyre dependent, so if it rains I know I am in with a very good chance. It is all about having fun - no anxiety. I would not like to race an unmodified Commando.
 
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acotrel said:
Riders adjust to their bikes and tend to ride around any handling problems. However a good bike makes a good rider, a bad one teaches you how to avoid crashes by crashing you or at least scaring you. It is the difference between leading by encouragement or leading by coercion. With my Seeley, I have been lucky with the steering geometry - it's handling inspires a lot of confidence. If I had started racing with it in the 1960s, I would have been unbeatable in Allpowers races. The motor is nothing, but from experience I know it is fast enough to win. If riding the bike is easy, race strategy becomes a minor consideration. As an older rider, I have a few advantages. In a race a good start is essential, however most guys back off for the first corner. I always take it at full race speed and turn under the others. A lot of young guys are very tyre dependent, so if it rains I know I am in with a very good chance. It is all about having fun - no anxiety. I would not like to race an unmodified Commando.
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Yes they do weave about a bit don't they, my Commando is modified and that still wobbles round race tracks.
 
The trouble is that beginners often ride unmodified bikes. If they crash early in their careers, they often don't return. Top riders such as Hailwood don't start racing by riding shit bikes. Stan bought him a very nice small Italian race bike. In the old days in Australia, the guys who bought expensive short stroke Manxes usually ended up in A -grade quickly. I don't know what the modern-day equivalent is.
 
acotrel said:
The trouble is that beginners often ride unmodified bikes. If they crash early in their careers, they often don't return. Top riders such as Hailwood don't start racing by riding shit bikes. Stan bought him a very nice small Italian race bike. In the old days in Australia, the guys who bought expensive short stroke Manxes usually ended up in A -grade quickly. I don't know what the modern-day equivalent is.
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I suppose it would be the Spanish way of schooling the young, the trouble with that is they often end up as one trick ponies. I guess Halewood's "privileged" start and his subsequent schooling on the most dangerous of tracks is what made him the best rider that has ever been, and that will never change now the race governing bodies are poking their noses into the gubbins of the bikes with control ECUs and altering rev limits to close up the racing up for commercial purposes.

"Top" level racing is a joke just now.
 
storm42 said:
Hmm, errr, no. :) At the moment it isn't about lap times for me, its about fun and I enjoy the bigger engined bikes.

When we were allowed guns, my target pistol of choice was my 44 magnum, and when ever one was available I would also shoot 45 ACP weapons. Without doubt a dedicated small bore target pistol was more accurate but I just didn't enjoy shooting them. Same with bikes.
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What do you mean "when we were allowed guns" ?
 
cjandme said:
What do you mean "when we were allowed guns" ?
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I think prior to 1996 I had a firearms licence and on that I had a 303 rifle, a Smith and Wesson 44 magnum and a S&W 357 magnum, the wife had a S&W 38 special.

After the Dunblane shooting the law changed and they took our handguns away, I kept the rifle and licence for a couple more years but gave them up when the renewal came round.

Still got shotguns and obviously a licence for them.
 
I love guns. I was once involved in firing a 5 inch naval gun into Spencer's Gulf in South Australia, from Port Wakefield firing range. It was really good fun. My friend has a steel cabinet full of rifles, but personally I would never have one in my home. Anyone can go off their head and kill. Guns make it too easy. In any case, I wear bifocals these days and cannot see both sights and target at the same time. The last time I went pistol shooting, I was on holiday with my wife and she shot my arse off.
 
There are times when my wife would probably like that to be literal. We sometimes go to the Returned Servicemens' Club in a town 80Km from here. Outside it there is a Leopard tank on static display. My wife does not understand why I say it is beautiful. To her mind, it is evil. Does the fact that something is designed and developed to kill people, stop it from being beautiful ?
 
acotrel said:
I love guns. I was once involved in firing a 5 inch naval gun into Spencer's Gulf in South Australia, from Port Wakefield firing range. It was really good fun. My friend has a steel cabinet full of rifles, but personally I would never have one in my home. Anyone can go off their head and kill. Guns make it too easy. In any case, I wear bifocals these days and cannot see both sights and target at the same time. The last time I went pistol shooting, I was on holiday with my wife and she shot my arse off.
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Ha, whilst in Florida, Disney or a range? see below :)

www.youtube.com/embed/3zYqr77zj8M
 
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