sprockets 'n chains

Actually while reading the thread about the '75 Hi Rider, yes or no, I thought about something about my own MK3 that I want to address this year.

As many know, in the USA, this bike came standard with a 20t countershaft sprocket rather than a 19t as in most other markets. This necessitated a 99 pitch chain. 99 pitches?, what a pain in the ass, needing a 1/2 link and all. One could fit a 100, but when correctly adjusted pretty much all available adjustment was used up and one has to either go with weeks of sloppy slack until a link can be removed (and at this time the chain is really toast anyway) or just replace the chain early. When I needed to replace the countershaft sprocket because of wear a few years ago I went up to a 21t. This allowed me to use a 100 Pitch chain that fit right and could be adjusted a number of times BUT, it is not the recipe for "snappy" MK3 performance. Interestingly enough the other trade-off with taller gearing is isolastic smoothness. On my example anyway, vibration goes away around 3000 RPM and I find myself either putting up with vibration as I'm easing along just under 3000 or downshifting and revving higher than need be to reduce vibes.

So... what I'm thinking about is changing the countershaft sprocket to a 19 toother,,, and finally I come to my question. With this sprocket can a 98 pitch chain be fitted, or will it be too short?

Sorry for the long winded novel, It's winter, though warmish it's pissing drizzle, just came in from the garage with another load of firewood and glancing toward my shivering Norton I just felt like talking about her. And right there is a milestone as I have never in my life referred to any of my cars or bikes as "her".

Biscuit said:

As many know, in the USA, this bike came standard with a 20t countershaft sprocket rather than a 19t as in most other markets.

Click to expand...

"Other market" Mk3s normally had a 22T sprocket (and a 100 link chain): http://britmoto.com/manuals/Manuals/850_man.pdf
pdf p.21. "Gearbox Sprocket 20T [USA/Canada] or 22T [Except USA/Canada] Standard".

http://britmoto.com/manuals/Manuals/8503e_pt.pdf
Sprockets: Group 6
Chain: Group 11.

Try reading the thread below titled DRIVE CHAIN by htown.

I installed a 100link DID X ring chain on my mk111. I had to fit a 22T sprocket to get some adjustment but i wanted to gear it up anyway. They way it's going it may last forever! Very happy with the change and no more lube all over the rear wheel anymore.

petejohno said:

I installed a 100link DID X ring chain on my mk111. I had to fit a 22T sprocket to get some adjustment but i wanted to gear it up anyway. They way it's going it may last forever! Very happy with the change and no more lube all over the rear wheel anymore.

Click to expand...

That's interesting, no clearance issues at all? :?:

No clearance problems on my mk111. There is not much but it clears. In fact i had to pull the primary off to replace the "new" seal that leaked after 300km ! All is good. I would recommend the DID vm530 x ring though as it is narrower than any others. These chains can handle a lot more hp than a norton has. I have one on my worked 836cc rickman cr and it needed only 1/32 adjustment in 14000km.

petejohno said:

No clearance problems on my mk111. There is not much but it clears. In fact i had to pull the primary off to replace the "new" seal that leaked after 300km ! All is good. I would recommend the DID vm530 x ring though as it is narrower than any others. These chains can handle a lot more hp than a norton has. I have one on my worked 836cc rickman cr and it needed only 1/32 adjustment in 14000km.

Click to expand...

I might check into that DID. The EK 530 X-ring I put on there rattles in my homebrewed alloy chainguard, which was bent up to mimic the stock chromed steel item.

Thank's, good to know. After replacing my sprocket, I'll use the old chain to determine just how many links are correct for a 19 tooth sprocket and order up the right one.

petejohno said:

....and no more lube all over the rear wheel anymore.

Click to expand...

You're not using chain lube with it?

When I open up my primary next I plan to install a 20 tooth sprocket to replace the stock 19 tooth
sprocket on my '74 850. Would I need to install a new chain with more/less links? How many?

Biscuit.......98 links

Yes i do lube the x rings but only a little is required to keep them oiled. A good chain spray wont flick off all over the wheel.
Danno.... i use the CNW chain guard. No problems.

I was wondering if the chain to sprocket contact points were running with out any lube.

lazyeye6 said:

When I open up my primary next I plan to install a 20 tooth sprocket to replace the stock 19 tooth
sprocket on my '74 850. Would I need to install a new chain with more/less links? How many?

Click to expand...

99, and that's why I went to a 21 in the first place. To do 99 you need a very weird 1/2 link. A 100 will work but you'll be at the end of your adjustment right off the bat with a new chain: Re-visit my first post.

The above is assuming the drum braked '74 has the rear sprocket tooth number and distance between countershaft and final drive the same as the '75.

Thanks andychain....98, I know you don't really like "o" or "x" ring chains on Nortons, I need to speak to you more about choices. Mind a PM?

Pete

No probs

I really must put the record straight........again.

I do not have any objections to sealed chains but they are not the solution to every problem.

If you ride all weathers and dont maintain your chain then fine use a sealed chain. When I do
a Eurpean tour I fit one to the old Bandit, but for everything else then a good non O ring is
the best.

Sealed chain has standard steel hardened pins.......iwis has chromised (google it) usually
only found in automotive chains.

Go for good O ring not the expensive X or W ring, the base chain material is the same.

Not all sealed chains are good quality there are several to stay well away from.

For old Brit bikes with limited BHP the power loss, yes there is power loss, can affect the bike.
It will laso make for notchy gear changes.

Big heavy chain whacking round at high speed against light chain whacking round at high speed,
work it out. Again I repeat bikes dont break chain they wear chain.

Price for any average rear chain I charge £42 compare that to a good, not a shit X ring, you will
get more miles for your bucks with a maintained non o ring.

I know somebody has found some but try getting crank links for sealed chain, I have never seen
one in 40+ years and many Brit bikes need them especially Nortons.

I will sit back now and await the crap.

Andy

I am a fan of the 520 X ring system. 42 tooth rear sprocket/drums are available that are compatible with the 520 as are the countershaft sprockets, same price as the 530 counterparts and no machining required; I like the 520 DID X-ring chain; strong enough to pull the QE-2, and if properly maintained will last 25K miles, or more. There are no non-sealed chains that I know of that will give that length of service**. And, if you going to change both sprockets and chain, the extra cost (for the sealed chain) is less than peanuts when you consider that the sealed chain "system" will out last 3 to 5 such changes of non-sealed chain/sprockets; your time/money are worth something?

I agree that 99 links is awkward, but do any of you remember the small blue and yellow steel Reynolds chain repair box that had a 1/2 link, a full link and a master link? Back in the day no-one thought much of using a 1/2 link, just happy to have the option.

I believe, as Andychain has mentioned, that a 530 sealed chain has more mass and presents more friction than a non-sealed chain and can eat some BHP, adds to the flywheel effect and may or may not change the characteristics of shifting; I haven't used a sealed 530 chain on anything but a 1050 Triumph and an 1100 Kawasaki. For me the benefits of a sealed chain far outweigh the detriments. And also as Andychain has mentioned there are a wide variety of quality out there where the less expensive chain may actually cost you more in the long haul: "Only rich people can afford poor quality" A sign in my favorite gun store.

Maybe someone can shed light on this conundrum: a 21 tooth counter shaft sprocket is a popular part, the rear sprocket at 42 teeth means that the chain isn't moving (advancing/retarding) relative to the two sprockets, so it never changes position. Maybe not an issue? But what happens if you go to change your rear brakes and lose the chains original orientation??

** Given the large number of members, on this forum, I'm sure that somewhere there is a member that has a 530 non-sealed chain set-up that has gone over 25K mikes; far from the norm.

My reference to chain is regarding, in the main, old Brit machines where sealed chains
are not needed.

As for high tensile strength, pull the QE2, as said bikes wear chain not break them. Google
Les Harris Racing, he runs a thin iwis non O ring chain and I run it on my 1200 Bandit, same chain
abused for 3 years, yes I do lube it.

It is a shame that in the main those in Australia, NZ and USA dont have the opportunity to buy high
quality iwis and are landed with a rash of ASA, Jap, Chinese and assorted multi coloured chains.

On Norton Commandos the crank link on half the range is critical to get best adjustment and I sorry to
contradict but going to 520 on a Commando will require machining of sprockets.

My main market is UK and Europe where I am well known and mostly respected. I am selling more and
more to Australia and NZ and a few to USA. I retired 16 years ago and play now, hopefully one of
grandsons will take over.

As a final comment it is nice that one of the major belt people in USA has asked for some quality cam
chains and for those doubting my credentials ask Bill at TT Engines who I am.

I knew it would create waves.

Andy

Loving it

Hi Andy;

I have one of your IWIS chains just fitted in my MK3, I don't know how long will it last, i would like to take good milage out of it and in order to get good results could you tell us how often should i lubricate it, with which product to use and process to follow in order to do it correctly.

¿i it adecuate touse one of the off road spray products? ¿ how about the spay lubricants for o-ring chains?

Thank you fot your reply

Best is boil in wax, Putoline do one. I use a clear spray from Chaintec, goes on liquid and then
sets to a wax like finish anti fling.

Use boil in regularly and your chain will outlast any sealed chain.

For O ring etc use no lube at all. The seals keep the lube out so anything on the chain will go
1 of 2 places.

If you must lube sealed chain get some cheapo diesel engine oil on a rag and run over the chain.
lots of detergent and will not harm the seals.

Andy