Simplify and add lightness.

grandpaul said:

Rohan said:

"The details of the evolution of the company name from American to Pope are unknown".

"the American Cycle Manufacturing Company, which was the predecessor of the Pope Manufacturing Company"...

Click to expand...

PREdecessor and SUCCESSOR are two different things, aren't they?

Click to expand...

So if its been restructured, rescued, reconstituted, reinvented or reincarnated BEFORE then it doesn't count. ??

That makes HD a low miles one owner Company then, doesn't it...?
And Mr Garners concern at Donington Park the only ever home of Nortons... ??

P.S. Omitted a few of the R's. = replicated, resuscitated.

"Pope" became pope, and died Pope. It wasn't resurrected.

For most of its manufacturing history, it wasn't Pope though.
And Pope was only the final brand name they ran with...

Which was my point precisely about companies changing, restructuring, going with the times....

daveh said:

Getting back to simplifying and adding lightness - A replica of a Francis Beart Manx. He knew about simplicity and how to add lightness.

Click to expand...

That is one beautiful motorcyle. It is sad that I will never be able to afford one.

daveh , hope you can see the whole of the machine ??

Relocated the picture the other day . Drg. for frame is on a roll of the old silk / linen drawing paper .( just profile of loop)

Mutter . 4220 Cams , mebbe the workedest T100R , 1855 engineski comrade . cry: gone now , possibly to peasants )

Got a hideous old raceing bike from a cow shed while I was building the Commando .Ten ton fairing and Square gas tank
on a metalic blue ( like the SS Duke ) Wideline frame . Severly wound welding reinforceing up the front tubes / gusset .

I figure someone spent a lot of time Tuneing / polishing the guts of it around 1960 .You can see the long intakes to
the twin 1 1/16 momoblocks , right hand cut, shared float , velocity stacks .

Traded the C.R. norton box for the Tank There , & I was under way .
Frame is from a pranged Commando ( Vs Mercedes. 45 mph into the side of the boot as it backed out . Murrys mate rideing
his 70 roadster ) .Triumph box . 68 650 Tri swing arm . Bloody great non Qd Axle in a Conical Rear .My 70 C'do Fr Brake .
AM4 linings , I think , fore and aft. Biggest compromise , WM 1 Fr WM2 R , 3.00 19 KR76 Fr, 4.25 K81 'R' rear ( US race tyre)
So the little sweetie had 750 raceing rubber on it .
Olde Perry let us have a C.R. Trimph gearset , and a SR II G-45 mag . Guards are 70 C'do for road .
Short Roadholders front .
Girlings ont back Prog Rate springs F & R .

Head lamps decoration, for the highway . Tank turned out to be Manx , This all fell together in 6 weeks , finding
all the stuff I didnt have , and makeing the frame , oil tank , seat base & Engine plates .
Mustnt forget the 69 Tri Seat cover / top ( like the triple ones, 70s )

Raced it the First Pukekohe meet , the Auckland round of the season champs , in the Raceing 500 Class with the Open Production field thrown in ( The 1100 Katanas ).Both on the Club Circuit. Onc meeting at the Long Circuit , and once half heartedly At Bay Park .

Intention was to Do a Series of the frames from 1 1/4 tube , mandrel bent , so envisaged as ' test ' frame .

Same top end on the Short Circuit as a Manx, give or take .Not bad for being (almost) finished a night or so before .
Vs the Katanas , theyd come past , and stop in front of you , Yards further on , youd throw out the picks .
Much snappier / livelier than the behemouths .But a bit cautious whist the brains engaged , a v light so a little flex and I did Learn to Arc weld makeing it .

Overall brilliant ride , even two up on Gravle on the Trigonics no issue .

Unfortunately got digressed by untoward infuances, and not appreciateing quite wahat That Was .

Not quite the same league as a Manx but I bet it has fewer moving parts, is simpler and lighter (the bike that is, the Landrover is typical British engineering...), 500cc 55hp SOHC 4 valve and no oil pump, 105kg without petrol

Matt — thanks for the low down on the "mystery machine" from the Land of Long White Cloud. I remember doing all sorts of fabrications and home-made adaptations and repairs late into the night. And you learn from this. It's also very satisfying to occasionally embarrass riders of machines with loads more gee gees!

ludwig said:

Do I qualify as a troll now ?

Click to expand...

Normally I try to avoid feeding trolls but I make an exception in this case since you have been here since 2006.

Yes, you are a "troll" by definition but I expect you must be a stealthy one to have gotten away with it for so many years. It is also hard to imagine a town with only one Norton since the top three British companies had built most of the world’s motorcycles, as opposed to motorbikes, up until that time. Honda built it’s first motorcycle, a 450, in 1966 and my uncle had one so I know what the thing looked like. As I recall it went like the proverbial bat but wobbled and wiggled while doing it.

Murray B said:

It is also hard to imagine a town with only one Norton since the top three British companies had built most of the world’s motorcycles, as opposed to motorbikes, up until that time.

Click to expand...

2 of "The top three" didn't build Nortons, and Nortons output was only tiny by comparison with the big players, so its not that surprising....

You distinguish between bikes and motorcycles (wasn't bmw the only manufucturer of 'motorcycles', in the advertising at least ?) but in reality there are about as many parts in each, so the difference is merely a line drawn in the sand ? The CB72 and 305cc CB77 were more revolutionary than the CB450, which was staid by comparison ? (not that we appreciate such things here in Britbikeland)(I had a CB450, just to explore the torsion-bar valve springs!)

These days, H*nda builds more bikes in a day than Nortons built most years they were manufacturing...

I wanted a Commando ever since I saw a new Fastback in a shop window in Crawley, England in 1969, when I was still in secondary school. When I was trying to scrape together enough cash to buy a second hand Roadster in 1973, my father, who had ridden British bikes until he stopped riding, said to me: "Don't buy it, it will break your heart." I took his advice reluctantly and, in hindsight, he was right at the time. I didn't have enough experience or cash to maintain it. I finally decided to buy a Commando much later in life, which for me, was the right time. At that stage, there were fixes for all the bugs, I had clocked up some mechanical experience, I had my own workshop and I could spend a bit of money on it. I wouldn't have considered it otherwise.

These days, H*nda builds more bikes in a day than Nortons built most years they were manufacturing...[/quote]


So ,There's more more gullible people availiable in a day , than the less less gullible people available in a lifetime .

Its as well we all realise Buggatis were degenerate garbage then and far more practical and affordable now .
I hesitate to call anything a motorcycle that doesnt look like somebody built it, Even if it was with a brick & coldchisel

Like political correctness , if we dont have any standards , everyone will be happy , unless they have standards .
Some wanker that doesnt maintain his equipment looks the other way , then blames the machine .

Looks like theres more scrapmetal produced in a day today than a lifetime then , we always assumed thats what it was made from,

I'm not going to defend 97% of commuter machines as 'enthusiast' territory Matt, as clearly it isn't. But if you've been to the 3rd world and seen dad mum and 3 kids all motoring along on their stepthrough, some of which are now positively ancient, in vast armies, you'd appreciate there is more to building good bikes than just cubic capacity and needing to work on it every weekend...

Things like Villiers lightweights and bantams tapped into this market a good way back, with hordes of euro mopeds, and now the Chinese are seriously moving into this market - there are now more Chinese motorcycle manufacturers, or motorbike makers if you like, than in all of the rest of the world. And Chinese car makers last year made more cars than Japan and USA COMBINED - although the quality varies somewhat apparently !

P.S. remember too that cars produced for the masses arrived in the west only a century or so back, so in the scheme of things they are not actually that far behind. Wanna predict who will dominate in the world of car making in another century ?
Or bikes - did I see that BMW and Ducati are already getting some engines made there. ?

Its all Henry ford's fault . We shouldve stuck with Horses . The Hi Po thing is exactly that , new and wonderous ways to smear yourself over the landscape . WHEN F-750 was introduced , it was Road Bike based , so as the manufacturors could
showboat their PRODUCTION models , with improvements allowed . 200 units to allow Old H.D. to get in the act .
Initial a Anglo American concept , the F.I.M. moved in , then Layers , then Jalpaese Engrish with 200 Units
of their Race engine castings derived from the production dimensions . Wth the hype , glitter and carnage
from the no holds barred commercialised gladiatorial mechanations . Again the teams that followed the script
were left to the wolves.

The hysteria of the oriental wobbler crew were ten fold when Ducati's were mentioned compared to British Machines,
Few people bough Jap with the concept that theyd be still going to pass on to the grandchildren .

The carnage in Jap Machines would appear to be many times that of the British Makes in view of the numbers of each
surviveing from that era .

We never had these problems untill the Homosapians turned up . There never happy with anything as it is . :lol:

Capitalism works perfectly if you are lucky enough to be a member of one of the elite groups who are able to enjoy the obscene profits that are related to things such as unending wars, which are largely paid for by taxes provided by the less well off.

Is this a great country, or what?

I don't recall needing any slaves, subsidies, or a war to make a profit in any of my businesses.

I guess I'm getting more forgetful than I thought...

Some people refuse to accept logic; it's just too logical, so it must be a conspiracy theory.

I hate to disagree with Ludwig, so respectfully -

Slavery was replaced by wage labor just as feudalism was replaced by free markets and the grant of property rights to the common man.

Any man, as a slave, is not as productive as he is as a wage laborer. THAT is why slavery was capable of being abolished. The good outbid the bad. Efficiency trumped waste. Capitalism ENABLED abolition.

It is no coincidence that the nations of the Scotch free market Enlightenment - the great traders of the 18th & 19th centuries, the British and the Dutch - were the vangard of abolition. They could afford it. They reaped the efficiency of wages and property rights.

It is also no coincidence that the nations that spurned free markets and universal property rights were, and remain, the laggards of manumission. Where ever property rights are tenuous, slavery is still tolerated.

The essential fact of freedom is property. I own myself.

That means that I am free. The two cannot be disassociated. I own myself, AND anything that I create, AND I own the right to trade whatever I create on such terms as I accept.

The Abolishionists take credit for a good that something else enabled. Yes, they were a precipitating factor but they were never a sufficient cause. Yes, they deserve credit for pushing, for making it happen sooner but that misses the point - the rise of free markets and universal property rights is what enabled the abolition of slavery. It was evolutionary, the evolution of trade, revealing the efficiency of freedom and property rights, as opposed to slavery.

When Kings and potentates own everything - THAT is slavery, not capitalism.

Slavery is not capitalism. Far from it, it is statism.

ludwig said:

...It has been a love - hate relationship ever since...

Click to expand...

Okay, Ludwig, but your story still leaves some questions.

How could you buy a new and rare 750cc N15CS (about 2500 made as I understand it) for the “same price” as a new CB-450? Was your government already applying a large tariff to the Japanese motorcycles in the “early seventies”?

daveh said:

...my father, who had ridden British bikes until he stopped riding, said to me: "Don't buy it, it will break your heart."... clocked up some mechanical experience, I had my own workshop and I could spend a bit of money on it. I wouldn't have considered it otherwise.

Click to expand...

The term “break your heart” that your father used could mean different things. Please clarify what he meant. Did he mean your heart would be broken by that Commando, any Commando, any Norton, any British bike, or any high-performance motorcycle? Did he suggest that you buy a different brand and model of motorcycle and were his bikes used as primary vehicles?

About your Commando. Why must you have “mechanical experience” or your “own workshop” to drive a Commando? Are there no motorcycle repair places in England that are competent to service a Norton? We still have them in Canada and any owner can choose to have all the work done there if that is what they want.

ludwig said:

Mine is one of these very last hybrids . I still have the original bill of sale ..

Click to expand...

You are one lucky fellow to have one of the rarest bikes in history. It must be worth a lot today.

Still, I wonder if you didn’t get a "lemon" or something. What I heard back then, several times and more than anything else, was “I wish I’d never sold the Norton”. This was one of the main reasons I decided to test drive one after I had saved enough money to buy a bike.

Now about the “trolling”. Surely you must understand how statements like, “The confrontation with "British engineering " was brutal and traumatic” and “Well , I did find oil all right .” are inflammatory and are “trolling” by definition on any site related to British motorcycles.

Murray B said:

daveh said:

...my father, who had ridden British bikes until he stopped riding, said to me: "Don't buy it, it will break your heart."... clocked up some mechanical experience, I had my own workshop and I could spend a bit of money on it. I wouldn't have considered it otherwise.

Click to expand...

The term “break your heart” that your father used could mean different things. Please clarify what he meant. Did he mean your heart would be broken by that Commando, any Commando, any Norton, any British bike, or any high-performance motorcycle? Did he suggest that you buy a different brand and model of motorcycle and were his bikes used as primary vehicles?

About your Commando. Why must you have “mechanical experience” or your “own workshop” to drive a Commando? Are there no motorcycle repair places in England that are competent to service a Norton? We still have them in Canada and any owner can choose to have all the work done there if that is what they want.

Click to expand...

He meant that it and other British bikes of the early 70s would have been too demanding for me because I didn't have the know-how to maintain it after having started out on bikes a year or two beforehand. Yes, my Dad had bikes as his primary transport, but it was before WW2 and he was living in London. Totally different scene.

England had plenty of repair places but I live in Ireland, although I was at school In England for a while. Sorry if my account was confusing. There were no Norton dealers in Ireland at that time and any genuine spares had to come from England. Dealers didn't want to know about British bikes and almost everyone rode Japanese.

You don't have to have mechanical experience or your own workshop to ride a Commando, but it sure helps! Just look at the posts on this forum. I have a friend with several classic bikes and he is unable to do some of the work himself, in which case the bike stays in the shed until one of us has the time to sort it; it could be months. The few bike shops that could service a Commando or any other British classic don't want to and there is no-one outside that small circle that I would trust. If you want to keep these machines on the road over here, you try to be as self-sufficient as possible.

daveh said:

Murray B said:

daveh said:

...my father, who had ridden British bikes until he stopped riding, said to me: "Don't buy it, it will break your heart."... clocked up some mechanical experience, I had my own workshop and I could spend a bit of money on it. I wouldn't have considered it otherwise.

Click to expand...

The term “break your heart” that your father used could mean different things. Please clarify what he meant. Did he mean your heart would be broken by that Commando, any Commando, any Norton, any British bike, or any high-performance motorcycle? Did he suggest that you buy a different brand and model of motorcycle and were his bikes used as primary vehicles?

About your Commando. Why must you have “mechanical experience” or your “own workshop” to drive a Commando? Are there no motorcycle repair places in England that are competent to service a Norton? We still have them in Canada and any owner can choose to have all the work done there if that is what they want.

Click to expand...

He meant that it and other British bikes of the early 70s would have been too demanding for me because I didn't have the know-how to maintain it after having started out on bikes a year or two beforehand. Yes, my Dad had bikes as his primary transport, but it was before WW2 and he was living in London. Totally different scene.

England had plenty of repair places but I live in Ireland, although I was at school In England for a while. Sorry if my account was confusing. There were no Norton dealers in Ireland at that time and any genuine spares had to come from England. Dealers didn't want to know about British bikes and almost everyone rode Japanese.

You don't have to have mechanical experience or your own workshop to ride a Commando, but it sure helps! Just look at the posts on this forum. I have a friend with several classic bikes and he is unable to do some of the work himself, in which case the bike stays in the shed until one of us has the time to sort it; it could be months. The few bike shops that could service a Commando or any other British classic don't want to and there is no-one outside that small circle that I would trust. If you want to keep these machines on the road over here, you try to be as self-sufficient as possible.

Click to expand...

If thats the case there seems to be a good opportunity for someone to open a shop specialising in Brit bikes over there?