Set the Pazon Sure Fire

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pierodn

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Hi All,
sorry, i have asked you the same question a couple of time before.
But a mechanic says i am in wrong.
My static setting, bike on the stand, is to find (with a degree wheel on the crankshaft) 31 degree BTDC rotating the engine backward from the TDC (found with a comparator).
This static setting becomes 45 degree measured to 5000 RPM with strobolight, engine running.
Then, i retard, rotating anticlocwise the trigger, untill to arrive to 31 degree to 5000 RPM..
Please, what is it wrong?.
Thank you
Piero
 
pierodn said:
Hi All,
sorry, i have asked you the same question a couple of time before.
But a mechanic says i am in wrong.
My static setting is to find (with a degree wheel on the crankshaft) 31 degree BTDC rotating the engine backward from the TDC (found with a comparator).
This static setting becomes 45 degree measured to 5000 RPM with strobolight.
Then, i retard, rotating anticlocwise the electronic plate, to arrive to 31 degree to 5000 RPM..
Please, what is it wrong?.
Thank you
Piero
Click to expand...

Piero, this is wrong!

'This static setting becomes 45 degree measured to 5000 RPM with strobolight.'

Because it actually does not make english sense, sorry for that, but I am trying to be helpful.

A static setting is just that, static, so cannot be measured at full advance, i.e. 5000rpm.

You cannot really measure a static figure with an electronic ignition, you might measure a 'minimum advance figure' with the engine running, but it really doesn't help to know this. However, based on the chart in the link below you would get something like 12 degrees at 1000rpm, but how would you measure it if you only have a fully advanced mark to work with for your strobing? So lets ignore that.

To get the ignition properly set up you are trying to measure the fully advanced ignition with the strobe, so yes indeed you are trying to get 31 degrees advance at 5000rpm, but your start point is much less as a static timing point.

What you need to know is, with the engine not running and set at the fully advanced point, 31 degrees Before Top Dead Centre, where should the timing rotor be set? Pazon tell you this.

Use either of the the red dots on the rotor and with engine set to 31 degrees BTDC set as per figure 4 in the .pdf at the link http://www.pazon.com/files/PDF/PA2.pdf so thatyou can see the dot fully, when the stator plate is set to the middle point of the curved mounting slots.

Now run the engine and confirm 31 degrees BTDC fully advanced with the strobe, making minor adjustments if required.
 
SteveA said:
pierodn said:
Hi All,
sorry, i have asked you the same question a couple of time before.
But a mechanic says i am in wrong.
My static setting is to find (with a degree wheel on the crankshaft) 31 degree BTDC rotating the engine backward from the TDC (found with a comparator).
This static setting becomes 45 degree measured to 5000 RPM with strobolight.
Then, i retard, rotating anticlocwise the electronic plate, to arrive to 31 degree to 5000 RPM..
Please, what is it wrong?.
Thank you
Piero
Click to expand...

Piero, this is wrong!

'This static setting becomes 45 degree measured to 5000 RPM with strobolight.'

Because it actually does not make english sense, sorry for that, but I am trying to be helpful.

A static setting is just that, static, so cannot be measured at full advance, i.e. 5000rpm.

You cannot really measure a static figure with an electronic ignition, you might measure a 'minimum advance figure' with the engine running, but it really doesn't help to know this. However, based on the chart in the link below you would get something like 12 degrees at 1000rpm, but how would you measure it if you only have a fully advanced mark to work with for your strobing? So lets ignore that.

To get the ignition properly set up you are trying to measure the fully advanced ignition with the strobe, so yes indeed you are trying to get 31 degrees advance at 5000rpm, but your start point is much less as a static timing point.

What you need to know is, with the engine not running and set at the fully advanced point, 31 degrees Before Top Dead Centre, where should the timing rotor be set? Pazon tell you this.

Use either of the the red dots on the rotor and with engine set to 31 degrees BTDC set as per figure 4 in the .pdf at the link http://www.pazon.com/files/PDF/PA2.pdf so thatyou can see the dot fully, when the stator plate is set to the middle point of the curved mounting slots.

Now run the engine and confirm 31 degrees BTDC fully advanced with the strobe, making minor adjustments if required.
Click to expand...

Hi.
I meant that 31 degree BTDC was on the stand, not running.
Then, with engine running, the mark do not confirm 31 degree but reads 45 degree at 5000 RPM, with strobolight.
Then i make adjustments for have 31 degree at 5000 RPM.
 
L.A.B. said:
pierodn said:
But a mechanic says i am in wrong.
Click to expand...


What exactly is it that he says you are doing wrong?
Click to expand...

Hi Les,
Your question is the question!
The mechanic says it is wrong, but dont say why!!!
So, he suggestes doubts!
Let me understand better.
Piero
 
Hi Piero,
If you follow pAZONS INSTRUCTIONS, YOU SHOULD NOT NEED A TIMING LIGHT. Set the timing marks at 31 degrees BTDC and then get the red dot in the exact centre of the hole , the bike will be precisely timed. I was pleasantly surprised how accurate that was,. It certainly makes life easier when the engine is static and not shaking round as would be the case when you set points,

JUst follow the instructions exactly. It works. Your bike will run beautifully [ unless of course, your carbs are out or your compression's are all over the place ]

Dereck
 
kerinorton said:
Hi Piero,
If you follow pAZONS INSTRUCTIONS, YOU SHOULD NOT NEED A TIMING LIGHT. Set the timing marks at 31 degrees BTDC and then get the red dot in the exact centre of the hole , the bike will be precisely timed. I was pleasantly surprised how accurate that was,. It certainly makes life easier when the engine is static and not shaking round as would be the case when you set points,
Click to expand...


If the Pazon instructions are followed then you certainly DO NEED A TIMING LIGHT. If yours was spot on under the strobe then you were lucky, but without the final strobe check to verify the accuracy you wouldn't know. Under the strobe Piero's was 14 degrees out from his static setting.


http://www.pazon.com/files/PDF/PA2.pdf
27. Start engine and run for 4-5 minutes to warm up. Using a white light strobe, time the engine to the full advance mark (previously used in step 19) with the engine running up to 4000rpm.
Click to expand...
 
L.A.B. said:
kerinorton said:
Hi Piero,
If you follow pAZONS INSTRUCTIONS, YOU SHOULD NOT NEED A TIMING LIGHT. Set the timing marks at 31 degrees BTDC and then get the red dot in the exact centre of the hole , the bike will be precisely timed. I was pleasantly surprised how accurate that was,. It certainly makes life easier when the engine is static and not shaking round as would be the case when you set points,
Click to expand...


If the Pazon instructions are followed then you certainly DO NEED A TIMING LIGHT. If yours was spot on under the strobe then you were lucky, but without the final strobe check to verify the accuracy you wouldn't know. Under the strobe Piero's was 14 degrees out from his static setting.


http://www.pazon.com/files/PDF/PA2.pdf
27. Start engine and run for 4-5 minutes to warm up. Using a white light strobe, time the engine to the full advance mark (previously used in step 19) with the engine running up to 4000rpm.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Hi Les.
If i understand well, my way to set is correct?.
Pazon says 31 degree at 5000 RPM wirh strobolight.
I start static from 31 and then with the engine running chek with the strobolight: I always find that the bike is advanced about 15/20 degree.
So i moove anticlocwise the trigger, untill the rotor mark is to 31 degree to 5000 RPM..
Thanks for help.
Piero
 
pierodn said:
If i understand well, my way to set is correct?.
Pazon says 31 degree at 5000 RPM wirh strobolight.
I start static from 31 and then with the engine running chek with the strobolight: I always find that the bike is advanced about 15/20 degree.
So i moove anticlocwise the trigger, untill the rotor mark is to 31 degree to 5000 RPM..
Click to expand...

Yes, from your description you seem to be doing it correctly.
 
Piero, it sounds as if you have the rotor set in the wrong position, did you do this correctly?......


"Hold the ignition trigger assembly in the contact-breaker housing, positioned midway on its adjustment slots (the slots will normally be positioned at approximately 6 and 12 o’clock). Turn the magnetic rotor by hand until the red indicator dot aligns under the appropriate static timing hole in the trigger. This must be done without turning the engine."

Cheers,

cliffa
 
The important thing is it's set correctly now, you have moved the stator plate so you now get the strobe to show 31 at 5000, this is now correct. So you may have initially set the static wrong but it is now corrected. Never had a Pazon but the Boyer on which it is based can vary a lot between the initial static timing and the final strobed checked setting, this is due to variations in the magnets strength, the gap between the magnets and the stator plate pickups and the electrical components. Just be changing the black box alone I have had to reset the timing by 10 degrees.
 
Ok, my limited brain is confused—-attempting to get the initial magnet wheel setting. I don’t have a degree wheel. With the left side inspection cover off, do I have a top dead center mark to rotate the engine too or is there a 28/31 degree advanced marker to rotate the engine to? By checking the upward travel of the pistons, I believe I can get tdc on compression but then I am lost. I understand the part of getting the red dot centered in the curved slot of the pickup coil plate and I do have a strobe light I can use for refined timing setting but am confused and just how and where to set the motor and the initial magnet wheel rotation. Help!!!
 
There are no marks for TDC or 28° BTDC. The way I do it is to put my finger on a spark plug hole and turn the engine until I feel it coming up on a compression stroke, then watch the timing scale on the primary cover while gently bumping the rear wheel in 3rd or 4th gear until the rotor mark is where I want it.
 
Huckfinn said:
I don’t have a degree wheel. With the left side inspection cover off, do I have a top dead center mark to rotate the engine to
Click to expand...

No.


Huckfinn said:
or is there a 28/31 degree advanced marker to rotate the engine to? By checking the upward travel of the pistons, I believe I can get tdc on compression but then I am lost.
Click to expand...

Yes. Turn the crank in the normal direction of rotation until the pistons are at approximately TDC, then turn the crank opposite to normal rotation so backwards until the scribed line on the raised pad of the alternator rotor aligns with 31 degrees on the timing scale. The actual cylinder on compression isn't important with Pazon as it's a wasted spark ignition system.


Huckfinn said:
I understand the part of getting the red dot centered in the curved slot of the pickup coil plate
Click to expand...

It's the stator plate that is set at the mid-slot position.

The (still loose) Pazon rotor should then be positioned without moving the crankshaft so the red paint mark is visible in the anticlockwise/counterclockwise timing hole (for camshaft points) of the stator plate. The rotor bolt can then be tightened.
 
L.A.B. said:
Yes. Turn the crank in the normal direction of rotation until the pistons are at approximately TDC, then turn the crank opposite to normal rotation so backwards until the scribed line on the raised pad of the alternator rotor aligns with 31 degrees on the timing scale. The actual cylinder on compression isn't important with Pazon as it's a wasted spark ignition system.
Click to expand...

Turning the crank backwards from TDC reverses the slack in the timing chain. There will be a couple degrees of crank rotation without corresponding cam movement. I prefer to approach the timing mark while bumping the rear wheel or tapping the kick starter.
 
Re "Hi Les. If i understand well, my way to set is correct?.
Pazon says 31 degree at 5000 RPM wirh strobolight.
I start static from 31 and then with the engine running chek with the strobolight: I always find that the bike is advanced about 15/20 degree.
So i moove anticlocwise the trigger, untill the rotor mark is to 31 degree to 5000 RPM..
Thanks for help. Piero" QUOTE

Not familiar with these electronic ignitions, - in simple terms you are setting it on full retard, when you start the engine it advances – hence the difference.
 
maylar said:
Turning the crank backwards from TDC reverses the slack in the timing chain. There will be a couple degrees of crank rotation without corresponding cam movement.
Click to expand...

Agreed, but then it's only a 'rough' setting for starting so needn't be too precise as the final check and adjustment is done with the strobe.
 
Bernhard said:
Not familiar with these electronic ignitions, - in simple terms you are setting it on full retard, when you start the engine it advances – hence the difference.
Click to expand...

Electronic ignitions are usually set to FULL ADVANCE. The amount of 'retard' at lower RPM is taken care of by the electronics therefore if subsequently found to be 15-20 degrees advanced at high RPM when checked with the strobe then the ignition must have been statically set 10-20 degrees advanced.
 
one thing you may be missing is it is possible to time the pazon ignition on the wrong mark anti clock wise or clock wise

using the wrong static marker may account for PIERODN discrepancy when strobing ?
 
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