Quality of AN Spares.

Al-otment · May 21, 2014

Rohan said:
Al-otment said:

You don't appear to be aware that the followers have stellite pads brazed to the bodies - surprising for someone of your expertise, I could see areas where penetration was incomplete, these were returned and did not go in the engine..

Click to expand...

I've applied stellite directly to a steel part - not Norton cam followers - it is WELDED there directly and ground to suit.
If Norton cam followers have it 'brazed' there, that is a new one on me.
But I haven't inspected too many Commando cam followers either.
Don't recall any braze on any 850 followers though...

You didn't actually say what torque someone did the conrods bolts up to. ?
There are some wrong numbers quoted various places about Norton torques.... ??

Al-otment said:
Rohan,

.........I built the engine using a Britool torque wrench which I've checked against my calibrated Teng Tools torque wrench. Bolts torqued to the manual figure of 25lbft. And yes, I have the broken bolt and cracked cases.

If you check back you'll find the above in my first reply. During engine assembly I make the point of double checking torque values and tightness of all fasteners. The AN stellite pads I have seen are all brazed onto the 'D' profile tubes of the follower bodies. Look inside a good one and you'll see the distinctive smooth deposit of bronze as opposed to penetration due to welding. The stellite pads have caused problems due to poor brazing when the pad has fallen off (not on my engine) but now the stellite pad is stepped so when the brazing does fail it just rattles around. T

The following is part of another futile discussion regarding broken tappet adjusters and includes cam followers losing their feet.

http://www.nortonownersclub.org/noc-cha ... =0#5502771

Al-otment · May 21, 2014

SteveA said:
The process used to attach the stellite feet to the cast follower used to be referred to as 'friction welding', no there should be no bronze like material in there which typifies a 'brazed joint'....

I have heard of the stellite falling off of new followers recently......and I had it happen on '75 made items in about '77 on a race bike.....it would be nice to come up with a new design, JS has followed one option, BSA followers....but on the original BSA items there is still a stellite section involved.....

A supplier who gets continual returns on unused parts has one route if he wants to remain profitable.....find an alternate supplier who delivers what is required and performs 100% inspection.....and price according to cost and profit....

On the ones I've seen the stellite pad is definitely brazed on. Apparently the new ones have a step on the stellite so it would be impossible to friction weld these.
You're also assuming the majority of parts get returned where as many owners resort to 'fettling' parts to get them to fit and then when parts do fail it's typically past the 12 months from date of purchase. I'm just glad there are alternative components available from top quality manufacturers.

kromatid750 · May 21, 2014

Regarding brazing/welding of stellite feet onto cam followers; this is part of a set I purchased from Norvil in 2009. Of course, he who is never wrong advised me that they were often like this and would be no problem in operation! The resulting 'discussion' ended up with us searching through his stock to find a set where they all looked like the follower at the bottom.

I'm no engineer/metallurgist, but I could only imagine that thin bead of bronze eventually breaking off and......

Burgs · May 21, 2014

Hi All
I have fitted a set of cam followers to my 1972 Commando AN supplied through RGM. There was no real problem other than one set had a slight taper which I Fettled, but disappointed by having been in the game (machining) I could understand as quality, quantity and price the public want to pay is the control.
Looked at my stock of used cam followers original manufacturers, could not reveal any braising or silver soldering, although I will look more closely.
The joint should be thin as the compressive strength of brass or silver solder is not good, it only needs to hold the parts together at which both processes are very good.
If I saw evidence of lots of silver solder or bronze I would be very concerned.
I also did not notice either Silver Solder or Brazing in the AN followers I fitted?
My Two Bobs worth
Best Regards
Burgs

kiwi · May 21, 2014

If the stellite feet are difficult to braze or weld on

you have to ask yourself why the hell don't the suppliers change the Material spec , take a look at any modern car engine (no stellite tips used there ) some form of Nitrided steel is used

and good for thousands of miles with service intervals of 20K I would recommend suppliers make their cams and followers from this bullet proof material and throw the factory drawings and specs in the bin

I have used the non stellite nitride type Triumph followers which are currently around and had no premature wear issues after several thousand miles over a five year period ( cheaper and better than stellite )

Lets face it when these bikes were designed stellite was the only material which would work long enough to get the bikes out of the warranty period

materials which are currently available in 2014 are far superior if suppliers and dealers pull their heads out the sand and consult with commercial camshaft manufacturers find out which materials run together and last
the problem could be solved

Bernhard · May 21, 2014

Al-otment said:
SteveA said:

The process used to attach the stellite feet to the cast follower used to be referred to as 'friction welding', no there should be no bronze like material in there which typifies a 'brazed joint'....

I have heard of the stellite falling off of new followers recently......and I had it happen on '75 made items in about '77 on a race bike.....it would be nice to come up with a new design, JS has followed one option, BSA followers....but on the original BSA items there is still a stellite section involved.....
A supplier who gets continual returns on unused parts has one route if he wants to remain profitable.....find an alternate supplier who delivers what is required and performs 100% inspection.....and price according to cost and profit....

Click to expand...

On the ones I've seen the stellite pad is definitely brazed on. Apparently the new ones have a step on the stellite so it would be impossible to friction weld these.
You're also assuming the majority of parts get returned where as many owners resort to 'fettling' parts to get them to fit and then when parts do fail it's typically past the 12 months from date of purchase. I'm just glad there are alternative components available from top quality manufacturers.

A 750 Atlas I once owned had part of the stellite tip break away from the cam follower when the bike was 7 years old.
I do not actually know what type of process Norton used to make the joint between the cam follower and the stellite tip, there are about 101 different types and it does look like some form of brazing- I should imagine that they obtain it in sheet form instead of rods.

Bernhard · May 21, 2014

kiwi said:
If the stellite feet are difficult to braze or weld on

you have to ask yourself why the hell don't the suppliers change the Material spec , take a look at any modern car engine (no stellite tips used there ) some form of Nitrided steel is used

and good for thousands of miles with service intervals of 20K I would recommend suppliers make their cams and followers from this bullet proof material and throw the factory drawings and specs in the bin

I have used the non stellite nitride type Triumph followers which are currently around and had no premature wear issues after several thousand miles over a five year period ( cheaper and better than stellite )

Lets face it when these bikes were designed stellite was the only material which would work long enough to get the bikes out of the warranty period
materials which are currently available in 2014 are far superior if suppliers and dealers pull their heads out the sand and consult with commercial camshaft manufacturers find out which materials run together and last the problem could be solved

When Norton first made the 500 Domi engine way back they did not use stellite tips on the cam followers and they wore down PDQ.
The stellite feet/tips were cheap way to prevent this;
http://stellite.com/Portals/0/pdf/Datas ... (S%20R0808).pdf

If they were to return to all steel cam followers they will have to be heat treated to a certain hardness which would push the price up over and above the method they use now.
All engines are built to a price- the cheapest method always wins :!:

john robert bould · May 21, 2014

You could use all steel if the engine had a better oiling system,and i dont think a heat treated follower would be more expensive than a brazed on pad.

kommando · May 21, 2014

I have had the stellite tip come off a BSA original cam follower, I have also bought tooling with stellite tips and this was welded on where the bronzed stellite showed signs of coming off, more expensive as they used stellite welding rods. Not sure nitrided steel followers would work as they would be running on nitrided steel cams and same metal to same metal running normally results in galling then failure as you find in Amal carbs.

SteveA · May 21, 2014

Al-otment said:
The AN stellite pads I have seen are all brazed onto the 'D' profile tubes of the follower bodies. Look inside a good one and you'll see the distinctive smooth deposit of bronze as opposed to penetration due to welding. The stellite pads have caused problems due to poor brazing when the pad has fallen off (not on my engine) but now the stellite pad is stepped so when the brazing does fail it just rattles around.

I shall be unpacking same and checking them at the weekend......

Time Warp · May 21, 2014

Why no radius ed face or does the Mk111 have that over the flat face follower.
I have spent a reasonable amount of money at AN,only part I have had some doubt over is the crankshaft fastening kit.

That kit would have to run some $200 I think to be top notch.
In saying that,looking at the original parts removed,the machining is a shocker tool path wise,under the eye glass magnifier the bolts looked to have no radius from under the head onto the shank. :?
It is easy to see the machine tools back then in general were old,modern CNC should be able to give a vast improvement.

As far as rod bolts go I think the only way to a true uniform setting is by stretch gauge.

kiwi · May 21, 2014

Andover camshafts are claimed to be made from chilled iron blanks not nitride hardened steel

So should run with nitride hardened followers

As for production costs nitride would be more economical to produce no welding required for the stellite tip and no spark eroding required to form the finished radius

As for the primitive Commando oiling system , look at a VW flat 4 air cooled motor chilled iron cam with nitride hardened followers ( only splash fed ) and will go for 50 years without issue

modern long life oil contains all sorts of anti friction additives and a mist coating should be enough to prevent premature wear ( if the correct materials are used )

Yes early dominators used a hard steel follower which may have worn out PDQ but as I said earlier material & lube specs have improved and were not available in 1950

just look at the issues certain car manufacturers had in the 1970`s rattling camshafts were standard on some models after 10K

It is very unusual to see this on modern motorcycle/ car engines with this problem as the material / lube issues have been solved by manufacturers

so why not use the improved materials for Norton cams and followers ?

Al-otment · May 21, 2014

kiwi said:
If the stellite feet are difficult to braze or weld on

you have to ask yourself why the hell don't the suppliers change the Material spec , take a look at any modern car engine (no stellite tips used there ) some form of Nitrided steel is used

and good for thousands of miles with service intervals of 20K I would recommend suppliers make their cams and followers from this bullet proof material and throw the factory drawings and specs in the bin

I have used the non stellite nitride type Triumph followers which are currently around and had no premature wear issues after several thousand miles over a five year period ( cheaper and better than stellite )

Lets face it when these bikes were designed stellite was the only material which would work long enough to get the bikes out of the warranty period

materials which are currently available in 2014 are far superior if suppliers and dealers pull their heads out the sand and consult with commercial camshaft manufacturers find out which materials run together and last
the problem could be solved

Totally agree. If this line of thought was applied throughout the entire range of engine spares we'd have Commando's running reliably for 50,000 miles minimum.

Onder · May 21, 2014

How do the other vendors do? At least some of RGM spares are not AN.

Al-otment · May 21, 2014

Onder said:
How do the other vendors do? At least some of RGM spares are not AN.

For an example of RGM spares quality and after sales service see brittle-norton-sprocket-failiure-t19254.html

SteveA · May 21, 2014

kiwi said:
Andover camshafts are claimed to be made from chilled iron blanks not nitride hardened steel

Are you sure? I though that was the PW3 spec.....not AN

SteveA · May 21, 2014

kiwi said:
so why not use the improved materials for Norton cams and followers ?

because someone has to do the development and testing before seeling to the public with any warranty at all.....

All it takes is time and money, which you will pay at the checkout when you buy the revised parts.....fair?

kiwi · May 21, 2014

Steve

look at the AN website Joes thread / Rant on Pirate parts Camshafts Chilled Iron blanks

What you are missing is all the material development has already been done ( Newman cams are very informative over what material will work with what ) and I guess Megacycle in the USA have done their homework as well

all it needs is a supplier with the balls & cash to step up and make a batch

SteveA · May 21, 2014

kiwi said:
Steve

look at the AN website Joes thread / Rant on Pirate parts Camshafts Chilled Iron blanks

What you are missing is all the material development has already been done ( Newman cams are very informative over what material will work with what ) and I guess Megacycle in the USA have done their homework as well

all it needs is a supplier with the balls & cash to step up and make a batch

OK, my PW3 is also Chilled Iron, and some months back I asked Newman Cams (who grind the PW3 for Mick and Norman), what about improved spec followers? (lighter even) for race use....they said....with this cam use standard AN followers......that is what I bought...

john robert bould · May 21, 2014

" a mist coating"? ask honda about that "Mist coating" the Vf750 f ground off the lobes in no time...due to a MIST Coating...remember? Plenty of oil carrie's away heat,and two high pressure surfaces need the "oil Wedge" to surf upon.

kiwi said:
Andover camshafts are claimed to be made from chilled iron blanks not nitride hardened steel

So should run with nitride hardened followers

As for production costs nitride would be more economical to produce no welding required for the stellite tip and no spark eroding required to form the finished radius

As for the primitive Commando oiling system , look at a VW flat 4 air cooled motor chilled iron cam with nitride hardened followers ( only splash fed ) and will go for 50 years without issue

modern long life oil contains all sorts of anti friction additives and a mist coating should be enough to prevent premature wear ( if the correct materials are used )

Yes early dominators used a hard steel follower which may have worn out PDQ but as I said earlier material & lube specs have improved and were not available in 1950

just look at the issues certain car manufacturers had in the 1970`s rattling camshafts were standard on some models after 10K

It is very unusual to see this on modern motorcycle/ car engines with this problem as the material / lube issues have been solved by manufacturers

so why not use the improved materials for Norton cams and followers ?

Quality of AN Spares.

Al-otment

Al-otment

kromatid750

Burgs

kiwi

Bernhard

Bernhard

john robert bould

kommando

SteveA

Time Warp

.......back to the 70's.

kiwi

Al-otment

Onder

Al-otment

SteveA

SteveA

kiwi

SteveA

john robert bould

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