Paint Scheme

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Steel Roadster tank and side panels in black only introduced from serial 203200.
Steel in all remaining colours from 205959.
No information is available for the Interstate.
Glass fibre also continued into calendar '73 on the 750 models and 850 Hi-Rider.
Glass fibre tanks were finally outlawed on new machines from July '73 in the UK.
Ron L said:
I believe the first 850's were built in early 1973, not 1972.
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The main production commenced on the 24th January 1973 (Andover Norton records) and the official 850 model release was 7th March 1973.
 
L.A.B. said:
Steel Roadster tank and side panels in black only introduced from serial 203200. I've read a couple of places that the "D" line happened at the same time and that it was initially Combats - do you believe either?
Steel in all remaining colours from 205959. Do you have documentation on this?

Glass fibre tanks were finally outlawed on new machines from July '73 in the UK. Did they stop them everywhere at that time?

The main production commenced on the 24th January 1973 (Andover Norton records) and the official 850 model release was 7th March 1973. "Main Production" of 850s?
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I know it's weird, but see my questions mixed into your statements above, and thanks!
 
I've updated 67-69 based on Roy Bacon's Twin Restoration book. However, the Supplements for 69 & 70 which updated the 1968 parts book lists four tank colors: Red, Green, Red/Silver, and Fireflake Silver which doesn't match well with Bacon's book. Appreciate and additional info sources!
 
L.A.B.: Steel Roadster tank and side panels in black only introduced from serial 203200.
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marshg246:
I've read a couple of places that the "D" line happened at the same time and that it was initially Combats - do you believe either?
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No, Roadster black with D stripe was there in '71 (or late '70).


L.A.B: Steel in all remaining colours from 205959.
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marshg246: Do you have documentation on this?
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"203200" below (from the RGM website). The source of the document showing both numbers eludes me at the present time.
Edit:


L.A.B.: Glass fibre tanks were finally outlawed on new machines from July '73 in the UK.
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marshg246: Did they stop them everywhere at that time?
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I believe so and there are no glass fibre tanks in the Mk2/2A supplement.

L.A.B.: The main production commenced on the 24th January 1973 (Andover Norton records) and the official 850 model release was 7th March 1973.
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marshg246: "Main Production" of 850s?
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www.accessnorton.com

Starting date for 850 Production

Hoping someone can point me in the right direction to determine when 850s first went into production. I have a '73 850, serial number 301160 with a production date listed as 3/1973 on the head tag. I've heard others say that 850 production did not begin until April of 73. Any ideas? Thanks
www.accessnorton.com www.accessnorton.com
 
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B+Bogus said:
"As already said, the brochures tell the story - apart from the 20M3 bikes, where it seems to be a bit sketchy...


Post N-V round tank badges:

Not sure if any candy painted bikes were sold in the UK, but the 2-tone paint scheme continued into the non-round badge late '68'-'69 bikes (still 20M3) and had black with gold lining tank decals. Plain silver side panels still featured, later with the 750 Commando logo. I have no idea when this was first introduced; the US Cycle Sport magazine test bike had no side panel graphics, but did have '750 Commando Made in England' graphics either side of the tail fairing, which also had a Norton logo in the middle immediately behind the seat. It made reference to also being available in '3 solid colors; Red, Green & Silver'.
As far as I can tell, the Type 'R' was only sold with a candy red over metalflake silver gelcoat tank."
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My 68 came with two sets of tanks and tail sections from the previous owner, but he wasn't the original owner and he really didn't know the history of the bike.
Paint Scheme

The red tank was part of the pair but it looks to originally have been BRG. The aluminum Indian made tank is my backup, doesn't leak but it did weep for awhile, thinking of painting it and the tail section silver but I have no idea what is the correct silver. Anyone have a clue about the silver?
Paint Scheme
 
I have these three - does anyone have a scan or an original, these are all pictures.

Paint SchemePaint SchemePaint Scheme
 
Re steel tanks a friend has a 72? 750 Combat that he has owned since the 70's with steel tank and side panels in fireflake bronze [factory paint still]
 
B+Bogus said:
I think Greg's proposal will be more useful - the NOC guide is pretty light on detail for Commandos, and some of the colour matches are a tad suspect - ask me how I know :rolleyes:

on the subject of steel tanks... as I understand it, the '72 models still had fibreglass tanks, and I'm guessing that only the last (Mk5?) 750s had steel tanks - if any at all?
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What I was told was the candy metal flake type paint got the glass tanks and the straight colours got the steel Tupperware. No sure when it all started buy my 206xxx combat got all steel
 
ozcruiser said:
What I was told was the candy metal flake type paint got the glass tanks and the straight colours got the steel Tupperware. No sure when it all started buy my 206xxx combat got all steel
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No, look at my page. Starting in 72 Fiberglass and Steel was available and he disco ball (Fireflake) colors were available on both. Also, the Fiberglass tanks were, AFAIK, all gelcoat, not paint.
 
I have a fiberglass high rider tank in orange if you still need a picture.

Recently found a really good paint match for the gel coat fireflake blue if interested.

Scott
 
kernel65 said:
I have a fiberglass high rider tank in orange if you still need a picture.

Recently found a really good paint match for the gel coat fireflake blue if interested.

Scott
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I'm interested. If I can get enough paint codes that makes it's worth my effort, I'll add them. Also, if I can get enough quality photos of clean paint, I'll add them as well. Email: marshg@gregmarsh.com

On the fireflake colors, I'm wondering about flake size. A while back I sold a steel Fireflake Blue set that I called disco blue. The flakes were so big that I'm sure they were not sprayed but rather sprinkled on the wet paint and then cleared. I have a fiberglass Fireflake Blue tank right now that looks new but is not painted - the flakes, while still too large to suit me are much smaller. So, were the gelcoat flakes smaller or was the tank I had the oddball?
 







Greg,

Attached are pics of the signal orange fibreglass set that came with my 1971 Roadster (Sept. Build).

I suspect they are original to the bike, but this said, my serial number falls in the range of those missing from the original dispatch records.

One of the previous owners had placed decals/ stickers at the bottom of each side cover. As a result, the true colour was preserved and not subject to uv and fading.

Let me me know if you need higher res pics and I can break out the DSLR.
 
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SEd27 said:







Greg,

Attached are pics of the signal orange fibreglass set that came with my 1971 Roadster (Sept. Build).

I suspect they are original to the bike, but this said, my serial number falls in the range of those missing from the original dispatch records.

One of the previous owners had placed decals/ stickers at the bottom of each side cover. As a result, the true colour was preserved and not subject to us and fading.

Let me me know if you need higher res pics and I can break out the DSLR.
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When I use the clean spot on the bottom picture, I end up with an image that is 96x48 pixels. The shine on the tank seems like wax or not gelcoat which is why I went for the last picture.

Higher resolution in a couple of lights would be helpful. Maybe in full sun and in shade. Right now, I'm thinking rather than have the color on the row with the other info I'll have a link to clock to see the color larger and the image below is full size.

Paint Scheme
 
black cat said:
My 68 came with two sets of tanks and tail sections from the previous owner, but he wasn't the original owner and he really didn't know the history of the bike.
Paint Scheme

The red tank was part of the pair but it looks to originally have been BRG. The aluminum Indian made tank is my backup, doesn't leak but it did weep for awhile, thinking of painting it and the tail section silver but I have no idea what is the correct silver. Anyone have a clue about the silver?
Paint Scheme
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Great to see some original style paint!
Do you think these are originals or re-paints? They look authentic to me - I'd love to see a close-up of the wear on the red tank.
Is the straight red tank candy red over regular silver, or is it over silver flake?

Regarding the metalflake in the gelcoat, I've found that only the silver flakes were actually in the gelcoat; I believe the early red 'R' and 'S' bikes were candy red over silver gelcoat (as were the 2-tone fastbacks like the tank above). The Royal Blue and Golden Bronze flake examples I've worked with were spray painted onto plain blue and orange gelcoat substrates respectively. I'm currently doing a Roman Purple set for an early Roaster and this was originally painted on to a plain gelcoat blue - the same colour as the BSA Barracuda.
I think there's a practical reason for this - silver flakes, when flatted down remain silver. Apply abrasives to any other of the colours (which rely on dyed flakes), and they turn silver also, and in a very ugly way!
I've painted a fibreglass Roaster tank which was originally made in gelcoat silver, but I haven't seen a metalflake silver Roadster, 'R' or 'S' type anywhere. I guess the manufacturer (Avon?) just had a lot of silver gelcoat available.
 
B+Bogus said:
Great to see some original style paint!
Do you think these are originals or re-paints? They look authentic to me - I'd love to see a close-up of the wear on the red tank.
Is the straight red tank candy red over regular silver, or is it over silver flake?

Regarding the metalflake in the gelcoat, I've found that only the silver flakes were actually in the gelcoat; I believe the early red 'R' and 'S' bikes were candy red over silver gelcoat (as were the 2-tone fastbacks like the tank above). The Royal Blue and Golden Bronze flake examples I've worked with were spray painted onto plain blue and orange gelcoat substrates respectively. I'm currently doing a Roman Purple set for an early Roaster and this was originally painted on to a plain gelcoat blue - the same colour as the BSA Barracuda.
I think there's a practical reason for this - silver flakes, when flatted down remain silver. Apply abrasives to any other of the colours (which rely on dyed flakes), and they turn silver also, and in a very ugly way!
I've painted a fibreglass Roaster tank which was originally made in gelcoat silver, but I haven't seen a metalflake silver Roadster, 'R' or 'S' type anywhere. I guess the manufacturer (Avon?) just had a lot of silver gelcoat available.
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You've flipped some of my thinking. To me, gelcoat isn't something you paint - sort of takes away the point to me. I thought if you were going to paint fiberglass you layed it up without gelcoat and painted it. Since the gelcoat makes a relatively thick coat of color it can stand up to minor scratches.

If you understand you right the gelcoat was used like the base coat. For instance, the swooshes on Triumphs were usually the base coat and semi-transparent colors were used on top and if metallic, that was in the basecoat.

Did the gel coat get sanded to rough it up for paint?
 
marshg246 said:
When I use the clean spot on the bottom picture, I end up with an image that is 96x48 pixels. The shine on the tank seems like wax or not gelcoat which is why I went for the last picture.

Higher resolution in a couple of lights would be helpful. Maybe in full sun and in shade. Right now, I'm thinking rather than have the color on the row with the other info I'll have a link to clock to see the color larger and the image below is full size.

View attachment 84754
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Sounds good. The covers haven’t been cleaned since I purchased the project so I will try and get some grime off.

The tank is fibreglass. Not sure if it was waxed at one point or not.

I will pass on some higher res shots in both shade and sun.

The pics I provided were just some quick snaps on my older iPhone (while overcast).
 
Greg,

Sent an email with what I have as I’m unable to post pictures. I misspoke about the fireflake blue being a paint code but more a colored flake of what appears proper sized and tint although the original seems to be a silver flake under candy. For the flake you still need to put a blue base. My original side panel tool pocket is blue with no flake and used to match.

 
marshg246 said:
You've flipped some of my thinking. To me, gelcoat isn't something you paint - sort of takes away the point to me. I thought if you were going to paint fiberglass you layed it up without gelcoat and painted it. Since the gelcoat makes a relatively thick coat of color it can stand up to minor scratches.

If you understand you right the gelcoat was used like the base coat. For instance, the swooshes on Triumphs were usually the base coat and semi-transparent colors were used on top and if metallic, that was in the basecoat.

Did the gel coat get sanded to rough it up for paint?
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Typically you'd be right - the straight white (police), yellow, orange, red, green, (dark) blue and black fibreglass was just the gelcoat finish with (occasionally) pinstripe & decals applied - the '72 brochure from my earlier post shows how the finish on the blue interstate wasn't that great; some of them seemed to deteriorate fairly quickly, and the metalflake wore through to the patchy silver look after a lot of use.
They did a great job of laying very fine flake with minimal lacquer coverage. It takes me around three days to build up sufficient depth of lacquer to guarantee a long-lasting finish, not the factory 'good for 12 months' effort. The later bikes seemed to be better that the earlier ones in this respect.

The Fireflake Red was Candy Apple Red (semi-transparent) over the silver flake gelcoat, but all the others were coloured flake - look very closely at the Golden Bronze and it's blend of two colours.

As you say, Triumph used a silver metallic base with various candy shades right through to the 1980s. I think the very early Commandos were the same - hence my question to Black Cat regarding his red tank.

I'd assume the fibreglass would get sanded prior to laying the flake to guarantee adhesion, and they were pretty good in this respect. Forensically I've never checked ;)

With respect to colour matching the fibreglass, from my experience they all match the RAL colours; simply put, gelcoat is based on generic pigments, so the Production Racer Yellow is just RAL Signal Yellow. My alloy tank painted this way matches very well with new Norvil fibreglass. I haven't used the orange or red, but I'd start with the 'Signal' shade of each as a good basis.
 
B+Bogus said:
Typically you'd be right - the straight white (police), yellow, orange, red, green, (dark) blue and black fibreglass was just the gelcoat finish with (occasionally) pinstripe & decals applied - the '72 brochure from my earlier post shows how the finish on the blue interstate wasn't that great; some of them seemed to deteriorate fairly quickly, and the metalflake wore through to the patchy silver look after a lot of use.
They did a great job of laying very fine flake with minimal lacquer coverage. It takes me around three days to build up sufficient depth of lacquer to guarantee a long-lasting finish, not the factory 'good for 12 months' effort. The later bikes seemed to be better that the earlier ones in this respect.

The Fireflake Red was Candy Apple Red (semi-transparent) over the silver flake gelcoat, but all the others were coloured flake - look very closely at the Golden Bronze and it's blend of two colours.

As you say, Triumph used a silver metallic base with various candy shades right through to the 1980s. I think the very early Commandos were the same - hence my question to Black Cat regarding his red tank.

I'd assume the fibreglass would get sanded prior to laying the flake to guarantee adhesion, and they were pretty good in this respect. Forensically I've never checked ;)

With respect to colour matching the fibreglass, from my experience they all match the RAL colours; simply put, gelcoat is based on generic pigments, so the Production Racer Yellow is just RAL Signal Yellow. My alloy tank painted this way matches very well with new Norvil fibreglass. I haven't used the orange or red, but I'd start with the 'Signal' shade of each as a good basis.
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Very interesting and you've answered one I didn't ask.

People are always wanting paint codes so I hope to find what I can and add it. Even though they don't exist from Norton and wouldn't be right for modern paint anyway, I know people have figured out what is generally acceptable. For instance, the 70 Bonneville I have for sale I'm sure would pass judgement as the correct colors even though it's modern paint with clearcoat. Using the RAL Signal colors sounds like an excellent starting point, and I have a yellow and red that look great to try them against.

I'm one of the least knowledgeable here on colors. For Norton, I like black in the 850-style lining best, 750 "D" lining second and the rest - not at all. I although I'll admit that I liked and like disco, I have no use for what I like to call the disco ball colors, especially when oversized flakes are use. I do like metallic, but I always tell the painter to use the smallest flakes he can find. The non-Trident Triumphs I build are usually some colors other than black and, always metallic even if the original wasn't.
 
Ironically I got into an argument with a guy on the FB T160 group regarding the Burgundy red colour. He was adamant that it was 'Cherokee Red' while I said it was 'Burgundy' - which is what it's referred to in the literature. As I've owned a Cherokee Red Daytona I knew the colours were very different. The Burgundy is actually a generic candy apple deep Red over a silver base. As with the Norton colours, asking for a paint code is a waste of time: car painters need this information (my Subaru Impreza is 74F, and 4 shade variations exist), but for 40-50 year old bikes it's meaningless. The '68-'70 Triumphs had 3 different reds, from an orange through to a Ruby colour. Shop around for candy apple colours and it becomes obvious how it was done.
Interestingly, the (polychromatic?) Red fastback tank above appears to have been painted on a British Racing Green gel coat.
 
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