Oil Disappearing

I did the in-situ seal repleacement b/c I'd never taken a head off previously and was steep into my classic bike learning curve at the time. The method I linked, know as Ludwig's procedure, worked well for me. I used a slightly different method to hold the valves up while working...known as the "Rope trick"...basically stuff a soft length of rope in thru the spark plug hole while at TDC...until no more will go in, this supports the valves in fully closed position while working. Ludwig's method makes a simple hooked tool to support an inlet valve with tool in through plug hole. With this method I also changed out the springs, for both intake and exhausts & insulators (exhausts only). Took me an afternoon with my basic tools and skills. Ludwig claims 45 min with some experience. It solved the puffs of smoke I was seeing and was a happy rider for another 3 or 4 k miles before my cooper head gasket blew up and had to take head off. This was more like a few hours off, a few more hours back on and 4-5 rounds of re-torquing all the bolts over next number of days (composite gasket....cooper does not need so many rounds). When head was off, I found loose a valve guide so had a local MC machinist do the guides/re-grind seats, new valves and put helicoils in the three head studs...all for about $500 CDN plus three to four weeks turn around time due to his schedule. In the end happy that was all done.

Snortin Vache said:

There is no excess oil in the primary, and I added very little before it poured out of the level plug, so I must not have lost much through the o-ring in the cover. Before going for a ride, I looked carefully behind me and blipped the throttle. I do not see any smoke whatsoever, but I am not sure if this changes anything about what others have said. I did not have the chance to remove the tank and rocker cover to see about this drain passageway, but I will do that soon.

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Be sure to perform the blip testing when engine is also hot....it may be fine after a first start and then get smokey later. I beleive you also asked in first post about compression check...that should be done on the hot engine after a ride for best check...holding throttle wide open and kicking until no further increase on the gauge. I recall getting something like 155 each side....absolute numbers less important than similar numbers for each side.

If you are inexperienced like myself, you might want to look at getting a MotionPro Torque Wrench adaptor to let you make consistent torque settings on the three very delicate head studs...underside two at front, one at rear. There are videos on line showing just how much more torque these can take before pulling out the alloy head (spec is 30 ft-lbs, video tests showed 38-42 ft-lbs pull out). The torque wrench adaptor lets you hold the torque wrench at 90 degrees to the box end or ring end spanner fitting on the nuts (a socket cannot be used for these three on underside of head). When at 90 degrees, torque setting on your wrench is what the nut gets.

Snortin Vache said:

Ignoring my own labor to remove and refit the head, how much would I be in for for what you described, if you don't mind my asking? I already contacted a nearby guy about getting a set of Whitworths, so I'll probably be doing that anyway.

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It's late June , prime riding time for Canada and north U.S.A.
Can you live with it , put in more oil as needed and line up a good machinist for the head pull early winter ?
To answer your question , $250 Cdn. or say $ 190 American for the head work , not the parts , ( extra $ 300 or so ...Cdn . ) enjoy .

I like what Torontonian says.Go ahead and check torque on your head bolts,adjust valves, and ride the thing until the leaks bother you enough to tear it apart.Buy some tools as you are going to need them at some point of your ownership.Make sure you are not overfilling the oil tank after checking the level after a ride.These are a very enjoyable motorcycle to ride once sorted out.
Mike

Snorton,
You might find that the head gasket could be your problem also as the return passage is also on the right side and you have found a head bolt on the same side discolored.Replacing this is not rocket science and you could put in new valve seals at the same time.You have an even compression which is a plus and doing this process won’t keep you off the road for long.Did the previous owner give you any history of what if anything was done to this bike? This forum is a great place with a lot of good info by its members that has helped me for quite some time.
Mike

YING said:

Snorton,
You might find that the head gasket could be your problem also as the return passage is also on the right side and you have found a head bolt on the same side discolored.Replacing this is not rocket science and you could put in new valve seals at the same time.You have an even compression which is a plus and doing this process won’t keep you off the road for long.Did the previous owner give you any history of what if anything was done to this bike? This forum is a great place with a lot of good info by its members that has helped me for quite some time.
Mike

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Your two posts, one after the other, are very representative of the dilemma in my head. I could just carry oil with me and top it off as I have been doing and continue riding. I could also do easy stuff like retorque the head. (Or perhaps a weekend spent replacing the valve seals in situ would be the silver bullet.)

But then on the other hand, I could just take off the head, because I agree with you that there is some evidence that there is at least a tear in the head gasket. And then putting new seals on the intake valves would be a good next step. But once the head is off, the percentage chance that it is soon after in a box shipped off to some machinist is undeniably higher. Maybe this is too cynical.

Well, you have all been helpful, and while I deliberate on the matter I will continue riding the oil burner, which is a remedy in itself.

It is strange having no visible oil smoke if you are losing so much with no other significant leaks. I'd just keep checking for oil burn while riding, hot etc. You may just need right lighting, background to see it clearly.

Tornado said:

It is strange having no visible oil smoke if you are losing so much with no other significant leaks. I'd just keep checking for oil burn while riding, hot etc. You may just need right lighting, background to see it clearly.

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For my other transportation needs, I drive a diesel, so I am quite familiar observing faint plumes of smoke, especially upon start up and hard acceleration. Is it possible that I am leaking the lion's share of oil? Like I have said, when I park it, I do get drips of oil on the cardboard and newspaper, but I would imagine if I collected it in a pan it would be measured in teaspoons, not pints or quarts. But perhaps with crankcase pressures I lose it at a greater rate when riding? When I cleaned my bike the center stand and kickstand were sufficiently coated with oil and grime, but I attributed this to accumulation and neglect. Currently, after cleaning, the stands are pretty clean and I have put on more than 100 miles.

Snortin Vache said:

For my other transportation needs, I drive a diesel, so I am quite familiar observing faint plumes of smoke, especially upon start up and hard acceleration. Is it possible that I am leaking the lion's share of oil? Like I have said, when I park it, I do get drips of oil on the cardboard and newspaper, but I would imagine if I collected it in a pan it would be measured in teaspoons, not pints or quarts. But perhaps with crankcase pressures I lose it at a greater rate when riding? When I cleaned my bike the center stand and kickstand were sufficiently coated with oil and grime, but I attributed this to accumulation and neglect. Currently, after cleaning, the stands are pretty clean and I have put on more than 100 miles.

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When I've had small seeps from various places, typically see grime accumulating on CS, cylinder block fins etc. A seep from the anywhere on the head usually gets blown rearwards at speed, coating front side of frame sections and the side covers they are sitting in front of. None of that amount would significantly change tank volumes in a thousand miles.

Snortin Vache said:

For my other transportation needs, I drive a diesel, so I am quite familiar observing faint plumes of smoke, especially upon start up and hard acceleration. Is it possible that I am leaking the lion's share of oil? Like I have said, when I park it, I do get drips of oil on the cardboard and newspaper, but I would imagine if I collected it in a pan it would be measured in teaspoons, not pints or quarts. But perhaps with crankcase pressures I lose it at a greater rate when riding? When I cleaned my bike the center stand and kickstand were sufficiently coated with oil and grime, but I attributed this to accumulation and neglect. Currently, after cleaning, the stands are pretty clean and I have put on more than 100 miles.

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Wasn't parked next to a old triumph , very close genes ! Oil in frame ! , sorry , as mentioned before do a fast long down hill , then throttle off for as long as possible an then looking around or mates following crack throttle open , see if you see a puff of oil smoke , Cheers, keep at it .

Also have you thought about a boroscope camera down the oily plug cylinder, you can buy ones that attach to your phone or dedicated one with a screen hi definition and two cameras on the end one at 90 degrees to the other, get one that will fit down the plug hole , maybe you have some scores in the bore . The down hill test is for valve guides and seals , the oil rings have to do an amazing job for no oil consumption, as said a small amount of oil per stroke soon adds up . Cheers

The oil leaks really add up.
One drop of oil every 300 feet = 1 quart lost in 1000 miles.
It's impossible to know how much is leaking when moving at speed. Bikes that leak tend to leak at lot more in hot weather and more yet if held at a high speed.

When my Commando was as dry as a modern bike, it used about 1 quart in 2000 miles, which is nothing to worry about.
Now that it has developed a slight leak at the head it is using about twice that amount.
Time to fix the head joint, again!

Glen

Tornado said:

If you are inexperienced like myself, you might want to look at getting a MotionPro Torque Wrench adaptor to let you make consistent torque settings on the three very delicate head studs...underside two at front, one at rear. There are videos on line showing just how much more torque these can take before pulling out the alloy head (spec is 30 ft-lbs, video tests showed 38-42 ft-lbs pull out). The torque wrench adaptor lets you hold the torque wrench at 90 degrees to the box end or ring end spanner fitting on the nuts (a socket cannot be used for these three on underside of head). When at 90 degrees, torque setting on your wrench is what the nut gets.

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Tornado,
I like using that Motion Pro adapter.Makes those hard to get at bolts much easier to get at.
Mike

Nagging push rod tunnel head gasket leak/seep can be cured with out removing the head that is firmly torqued down...this also may sound dodgy...

Decrease joint surfaces throughly (cleanliness is the key)
Cut a piece of cotton or silk cloth about 3-4 mm wide & long enough to to go across the full front (gasket joint) of the cylinder head.
Fully impregnate it with a hi temp black engine sealer (then clean hands)
Hold it tought from both ends and slip it in between the fins.
With a small steel ruler with spit or water on the end the ruler etc firmly push the impregnated cloth up against the gasket joint and work it in all the way across the joint surface between the fins....leave to cure...
These type leaks or seeps are the ones that rear their nagging head after a hour or two of hot running....not this type

KiwiShane said:

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I think it would be safer to move it away from TDC especially if you have typical PV clearance .080 and .100 or so . It wouldn't be hard to bounce the valve into the piston , .080 or 2.0 mm , small motorcycle valve springs fairly low tension .

Shelby-Right said:

I think it would be safer to move it away from TDC especially if you have typical PV clearance .080 and .100 or so . It wouldn't be hard to bounce the valve into the piston , .080 or 2.0 mm , small motorcycle valve springs fairly low tension .

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Hitting the wooden drift with a mallet seems ok to me...but that's me...
Its a bit like scratching your arse..opposed to tearing it to pieces

Similar but not external method
Silk thread/sealant/oil leaks

It's British . We're not talking a Deepwater Horizon event here . Drive it , clean it and observe where the leak is originating from after another drive ( if you can ) . Add oil if a tolerable situation for the driving season until you get the tools , money and ( winter time ) .