NorVin . Norton Vincent .

worntorn said:

Copying vs inventing is like the diference between writing and performing and original song vs. doing a cover. But to give credit where due, the Japanese tend to do very good covers.

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The japanese have gone far far beyond copying though ?
Someone was showing the prototype designs for the Goldwing (don't gasp !).
Amazing stuff - tried the engine design on a w/c flat twin first, then on fours and sixes.
Then prettied up the mechanical design, then tried styling versions.
Amazing stuff....

AND, solved all those leaky petrol tap and oil pipe problems, solved all the oil leak problems, all the critical bolts coming loose problems - talking about for all bikes here.
Amazing stuff = attention to detail = someone no-one even thought to do back then... ?

??

The effect of Japanese improvements on motorcycles and autos is undeniable. I like the improvements but I still hold my highest regard for the original inventors/designers of game changing hardware.

For example, when it was looking like it could be a big advantage to put airplanes onto ships for warfare, the stumbling block was the obvious problem of takeoff and landing. Who but the Brits would think up a steam catapult? It worked and the design is still used on the most technologically advanced aircraft carriers today.
It was a Brit who came up with the first useable light bulb (Swan) although it was mainly marketed by Edison who falsley claimed it was his invention.
A look at the various inventions/deviations applied to the Sherman tank for the invasion of Normandy is mind boggling. And they all worked! That is why Canadian and Brit losses were so low, US losses so great. The US chose not to use these crazy Brit inventions, which was unfortunate.

When the miniscule Norton effort of the eighties decided to build a race bike to take on the titans with their mountains of cash and resources, they used a rotary engine to beat them all. The rotary is a German design, but it is typical that British minds would come up with that bike.

For sheer inventiveness, the Brits are hard to beat.

Glen

Right . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFDf1_MCD9o



Fireworks experts will this morning perhaps unwisely unleash a replica Great Panjandrum on the beach at Westward Ho! in North Devon - recreating the original tests of the rocket-powered wheel which sadly did not contribute to the 1944 allied landings at Normandy.

:mrgreen:

The Great Panjandrum was intended to thunder up the invasion beaches, cutting a swathe through German defences before detonating a ton of high explosive. It was, the Times notes, devised by naval lieutenant Nevil Shute Norway, later known as novelist Nevil Shute.

Shute Norway had worked with Barnes Wallis, but his top-secret Panjandrum failed to make the impact of the bouncing bomb. He'd calculated the beast would charge at "60mph on its two 10ft diameter steel wheels, smashing its way through any obstacles, before blasting a hole in the 7ft concrete of the Atlantic Wall large enough to drive a tank through".

Unfortunately, during not-so-secret tests at Westward Ho! in 1944, enjoyed by large crowds of locals and holidaymakers, the Great Panjandrum resolutely refused to follow a straight line.

Every time the cordite rockets were fired up, it simply veered off to one side. Shute and his team spent weeks tackling this problem, before assembling military top brass for a final demonstration. The Great Panjandrum failed to secure a place on the D-Day invasion fleet by once again careering wildly off course before exploding.

The 7ft diameter replica which will today menace Westward Ho! was constructed by Bristol fireworks company Skyburst, which reckons it'll trundle up to 550 yards at a modest 15mph.

Skyburst’s display director, Leigh Pittaway, insisted the Great Panjandrum would not be used to blow a big hole in the Westward Ho! seafront, and would be unarmed. He said: “We thought about it, as we have the whole beach to ourselves, but decided it would create too many complications. We don’t want to kill any dogs or onlookers.”

There's some footage of the original Great Panjandrum, along with other ill-conceived British military gadgets here. ® http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFDf1_MCD9o

CHARGE THOSE MACHINEGUNS > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS1dO0JC ... ure=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL5noVCp ... re=related

Save pensions.

http://articles.cnn.com/2008-02-01/us/m ... r?_s=PM:US

Liberate that Oil . :cry:

Poor bastards had to go head on in their Sherman tanks [nicknamed 'Ronson' -'it lights 1st time every time'- by the Brits & 'Tommycooker' by their opponents] against bloody Hitler-ordered Tiger tanks that could destroy them on sight, while being virtually impervious until point blank range - sure they could still win even losing 10 to 1 but that wasn`t too cool for the crews.

worntorn said:

TA look at the various inventions/deviations applied to the Sherman tank for the invasion of Normandy is mind boggling. And they all worked! That is why Canadian and Brit losses were so low, US losses so great. The US chose not to use these crazy Brit inventions, which was unfortunate.

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A lot of the "funny tanks" were Chuchill tanks.

Have you ever heard the expression 'the weeds are thicker over there' ? The Britten motorcycle came out of New Zealand for the same reason - excellent education system, but no jobs ! I was walking around the back streets of Christchurch years ago and saw a guy building a Delorean replica. He told me 'we can't buy these here, so I am making one'. Also I was talking to the 125cc World Champ, Hugh Anderson at Bathurst during the 70s. He said he had a choice of working in the coal mines or going racing in Europe. In Britain, they still have the old class system, but their education system is excellent, so people rise above it. I have the greatest respect for their technologists, but their approach to business is mean and scrimping because only the upper class has had money to chuck around. In Australia we inherited their trades system - great stuff came out of it, but it is terribly self-defeating at a social level.
There is a theory that Australia could be the source of designs, and the rest of the world can build them. It is bullshit - what usually happens is the Chinese copy the designs, and little comes back, except we buy their product. I understand that our CSIRO had a $200M operating surplus this year and has had $400M return from licensing cutting edge radio innovation to factories overseas, but that is exceptional.
If Roosevelt had allowed the Brits to use Lend Lease to rebuild their industry after WW2, things would have been very different. He allowed the Russians to do that, but not the British. He seemed intent on destroying the empire, and the US taking the lead in post-war trade. Read the book titled 'Friendly Fire' , about Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin during WW2. Even the A-bomb was handed to the Russians !

acotrel said:

If Roosevelt had allowed the Brits to use Lend Lease to rebuild their industry after WW2, things would have been very different. He allowed the Russians to do that, but not the British. !

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but he died in April of 1945, before VE day how did he allow the Russians to do anything after the war?

Have you ever seen a 500cc double knocker KTT Velocette ? They seemed to be better than a Manx Norton, however nobody could buy one. They never went into full production. One Australian rider Frank Mussett rode for the works, and brought two back from the UK in the fifties. A friend of mine has the 350, but you would never ride it in an historic race because of its value. The designs were there, but no money to exploit them. And no CNC lathes ! ! What interests me is that the UK kit car industry is bigger than their rural sector, and the F1 efforts are exemplary. I believe that one day the British will get justice for their superb efforts. They must eventually come out on top in spite of any international jealousy.
Interesting to note that during WW2, the Spitfire was hand built in jigs, often by women - but the American P51 Mustang was built with complete industrial engineering on a full blown production line. After it was fitted with the British engine, it was superb !

@gory
Roosevelt was very restricted in the aid he could give the British, by Congress. Lend lease money could not be used by the British, to prepare for the post war world, as it was in Russia. The Russians were treated very differently to the British as far as lend lease was concerned. Harry Hopkins ran the war anyway, but Roosevelt was the politician - both favoured the Russians. There have been accusations bandied about regarding their associations, but it was WW2, NOT the Cold War ! That came afterwards when Stalin entered his next phase, and resumed his nasty ways. The post war Marshall Plans were obviously not manipulated by Roosevelt, however the ideas for post war rebuilding probably came from him before he died. The British were never going to come out of WW2 stronger than when they went in, and with their empire intact ! The book 'Friendly Fire' is vey interesting, but my wife says it is just another conspiracy theory. The problem is that if you read it carefully, everything fits with no anomaly. It is an alternative explanation, and it is credible.

Bloody Churchill sold Britain out to the U.S., freely giving them vital secrets such as Ultra, gas turbines, radar, sonar, nuclear research, proximity fuzes & etc, & in return the U.S. bled Britain white before lend-lease, & demanded full replayment afterwards, whereas Stalin laughed in their faces - when asked for re-payment.
To be fair, the Packard built R.R. Merlins - were significantly improved by them.

It was largely the lefties post war who after they disposed of Churhill gave the Commies 7 Americans anything they wanted . Well give you this , and , um er .

So the swine had to nuke the Sth aussies as the Yanks had made off with all the Neuclear reasearch Info , & cut the Poms out . Brotherly Love .

Then theres the AK47 and ' freedom fighters ' . One or two Jet engines , and other things .

apparently theyre all in collusion . keep the population down & the peasants disposesed .

So they cant afford Ducati Imolas , and have to settle for mass production el cheapo jap stuff , and attempt to justify it . :wink:



http://www.detecs.org/camillo.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osP4FgqE ... re=related

Then theyres Hollywood. Standards are slipping . Or didnt they have any in the first place .

J.A.W. said:

Stalin laughed in their faces - when asked for re-payment.
.

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Long term, the Soviets' isolated, controlled economy got laughed in its face more than anyone's.

Triton Thrasher said:

Long term, the Soviets' isolated, controlled economy got laughed in its face more than anyone's.

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If you tot up how many countries/banks/businesses are currently teetering on the brink, or been bailed out recently, then capitalism is not doing so hot at the moment either..!!!?

Its only Chinese largesse keeping the whole lot from going belly up ??

Rohan said:

Triton Thrasher said:

Long term, the Soviets' isolated, controlled economy got laughed in its face more than anyone's.

Click to expand...

If you tot up how many countries/banks/businesses are currently teetering on the brink, or been bailed out recently, then capitalism is not doing so hot at the moment either..!!!?

Its only Chinese largesse keeping the whole lot from going belly up ??

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Yes, World revolution and workers' control of the means of production may indeed be historically inevitable. I've been wrong before!

But then again, is it largesse that drives the Chinese to sell us stuff? And is it a socialist thing to do?

Triton Thrasher said:

J.A.W. said:

Stalin laughed in their faces - when asked for re-payment.
.

Click to expand...

Long term, the Soviets' isolated, controlled economy got laughed in its face more than anyone's.

Click to expand...

Then, it looks like the commies are going to win after all :!: Oh bugger :!:

As compared to the fascist alternative ?! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Triton Thrasher said:

But then again, is it largesse that drives the Chinese to sell us stuff?
And is it a socialist thing to do?

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There is enough of them that its wise not to disagree, whatever the idealogy. ?
And how they like to invest their trade surplus $trillions ....

Just for something completely different, this is said to be Mr Egli's latest.

'Long term, the Soviets' isolated, controlled economy got laughed in its face more than anyone's.'

Communism and Nazism are both authoritarian in principle. Authoritarianism stifles creativity, and leads to an obstacle to 'continual improvement'. In the end an economy with a good level of industrial democracy must win out, e'g. Germany. Who would want to buy a fifties Volkswagen or a Lada, even if it was cheap ? The Chinese will always have problem building anything really inspiring, unless they copy very carefully, and then most people will prefer the original. They haven't built an F1 car yet, or the equivalent t o a Ducati. The way to beat them globally is by moving up-market in a quality sense.