New Product for Tri-Spark users
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ludwig said:
Hi Ludwig yes fried is a good word to use as in egg and rice...
but from the standard of your posts I qoute 'This heat is transported to other parts , oil and air in 3 possible ways : conduction , convection or radiation(= basic thermodynamics ) 'I expected a more technical description
I am waiting for the unit to be examined by tri-spark so as yet do not know, I can only say that the rest of the ignition setup was fine since the Boyer on replacement was fine and still is.....
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ludwig said:
To "fry" in the context of something "destroyed by heat (or excess voltage)", is more of an American term I think, and maybe not so commonly used in the UK.
ludwig said:
If the Classic Twin ignition is capable of handling engine heat in Australia and hotter parts of the US climate and elsewhere without a significant number of failures (after all it's been around for two years now) then I somehow doubt the UK climate is going to "fry" it.
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I've been watching this thread with interest, as I've just got my MkIIA on the road with a Trispark fitted, on the basis that it gave the best performance and was rugged, so when a product is offered which seeks to improve this I'm naturally interested...and a little concerned!
Before I launch into my rant, I'd like to say that I'm with Les - the stable, low tickover is a real joy to have...Imagine being able to get the helmet and gloves on, knowing the damn thing isn't going to cough and die before I get a chance to blip that throttle!
So, back to the rant...my 'professional' work requires me to investigate why electrical and electronic devices have failed on aircraft.
Generally, this amounts to staring at a blackened crater on a PCB, so whatever failed removed the evidence in the process of vapourising itself :shock:
From a design perspective, the two biggest killers are heat and vibration (assuming correctly specced components!).
Some components are notably susceptible to thermal shock, but the worst shock it'll ever experience is when it is fitted to the PCB, and such damage leads to infant mortality cases, which typically occur before the Jet ever gets off the ground - most are caught before the units are sent out from the supplier.
Turbine-engined aircraft aren't the most hostile vibration environment (depending on what they do for a living), but the temperature range is severe - take-off at ~ 30 deg. C and climb to a -60 deg. C environment in a few minutes is typical, with bay temps of 90 + deg, significantly more in engine bays. The components used in these environments are either bought ready-qualified, or on occasion screened for this environment. If Trispark are using MIL grade components then I don't see an issue.
Solid state, potted-in components should be highly resistant to vibration, as there are no wobbly bits to flap around and resonate, but given the environment the Commando engine lives in, I'd like to see some accelerometers fitted and look at the results!
Helicopter transmissions can generate 'G' levels in excess of 100G, and I supect the Commando engine's unrestrained thrashing around may be equally hostile.
Boyers are known for fracturing the leads on the stator plate (back to the unrestrained thrashing), but the Trispark is more rugged, with appropriate installation advice regarding padding out the wiring (with a nice insulator )
If these units have a failure mode - and evidently one does exist, I'd really want to understand exactly what it is before I plan my next European Tour... They're not cheap enough to carry a spare :cry:
A single unit failure should never be a cause for real concern - when two fail the same way, I start getting VERY interested.
So....adopts 'interrogator mode'....
How many miles had this unit done? DId it quit on the move, or fail to start? (I've had this on another ignition, which had a batch manufacturing issue)
Were there any other electrical issues - rectifier/Zener etc?
Was it a particularly hot day (in Maidstone :!: :?: :mrgreen: )
Finally.....was it one of the latest design units?
I'm still a fan of the Trispark, and the only downside for me is the price. I hope we get some clarity regarding the failed unit, because nobody likes it when doubt creeps in :roll:
Before I launch into my rant, I'd like to say that I'm with Les - the stable, low tickover is a real joy to have...Imagine being able to get the helmet and gloves on, knowing the damn thing isn't going to cough and die before I get a chance to blip that throttle!
So, back to the rant...my 'professional' work requires me to investigate why electrical and electronic devices have failed on aircraft.
Generally, this amounts to staring at a blackened crater on a PCB, so whatever failed removed the evidence in the process of vapourising itself :shock:
From a design perspective, the two biggest killers are heat and vibration (assuming correctly specced components!).
Some components are notably susceptible to thermal shock, but the worst shock it'll ever experience is when it is fitted to the PCB, and such damage leads to infant mortality cases, which typically occur before the Jet ever gets off the ground - most are caught before the units are sent out from the supplier.
Turbine-engined aircraft aren't the most hostile vibration environment (depending on what they do for a living), but the temperature range is severe - take-off at ~ 30 deg. C and climb to a -60 deg. C environment in a few minutes is typical, with bay temps of 90 + deg, significantly more in engine bays. The components used in these environments are either bought ready-qualified, or on occasion screened for this environment. If Trispark are using MIL grade components then I don't see an issue.
Solid state, potted-in components should be highly resistant to vibration, as there are no wobbly bits to flap around and resonate, but given the environment the Commando engine lives in, I'd like to see some accelerometers fitted and look at the results!
Helicopter transmissions can generate 'G' levels in excess of 100G, and I supect the Commando engine's unrestrained thrashing around may be equally hostile.
Boyers are known for fracturing the leads on the stator plate (back to the unrestrained thrashing), but the Trispark is more rugged, with appropriate installation advice regarding padding out the wiring (with a nice insulator
)If these units have a failure mode - and evidently one does exist, I'd really want to understand exactly what it is before I plan my next European Tour... They're not cheap enough to carry a spare :cry:
A single unit failure should never be a cause for real concern - when two fail the same way, I start getting VERY interested.
So....adopts 'interrogator mode'....
How many miles had this unit done? DId it quit on the move, or fail to start? (I've had this on another ignition, which had a batch manufacturing issue)
Were there any other electrical issues - rectifier/Zener etc?
Was it a particularly hot day (in Maidstone :!: :?: :mrgreen: )
Finally.....was it one of the latest design units?
I'm still a fan of the Trispark, and the only downside for me is the price. I hope we get some clarity regarding the failed unit, because nobody likes it when doubt creeps in :roll:
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Well stated, Andy.
My work experience is solely in the design and building of geophysical instruments that function several miles deep in the earth, where it's really hot; our products were spec'd at 175C, 8 g's continuous vibration, 100 g's shock. Our designs, resulting from several hundred engineers and techs working at three separate centers, failed on average every 30 trips, i.e., every 30 heat cycles of, on average, 20C-130C. After a few hundred cycles, the instruments were simply too costly to maintain, and they were destroyed and replaced with new ones. Admittedly, these instruments were more complicted than an EI system, which is little more than a counter with adjustable phase, but the point I'm trying to make at the onset here is that, even with an enormous engineering effort behind these designs, heat killed them.
Now, what has this story got to do with running an EI system on a Norton? Well, nothing, UNLESS you place the electronics in the engine. Are the temperatures on a Norton engine that similar to what I've experienced in my design work? The data is a bit thin, but let's give it a go.
In the Norton Notice, the monthly publication of the NOCNC, Alan Goldwater, in the late 90's, placed thermocouples on and within his Norton engine and went for a ride. Alan's goal was to spec out the right engine lubricants, so some messaging of his data is necessary to see how it applies to the timing case problem. Alan found that after 10 minutes of 75 mph cruising at an ambient temperature of 32C, he recorded the following stable measurements:
Head 135C
Bottom of jugs 116C
Engine oil intake 93C
When he exited the road and stopped, the temperatures shot up. Idling for 10 minutes yielded the following:
Head 190C (an increase of 55C).
Data does not exist for the oil intake temperature while idling, so we have to guess. My guess is that it rose half of the head temperature rise, or an increase of 25C to 118C. We have to guess again at the jug temperature as well, but let's use the same increase, 25C, to come to an estimate of 141C. I can't believe that the timing cavity can be cooler than the surrounding oil, and is likely hotter due to conduction from the jugs, only a few centimeters of aluminum away. Let's say the maximum temperature of the timing cavity rises to between 118C and 141C. Lads, we are at or above the mil spec limit for electrical components. This is no place to be carrying electronics.
I don't run TriSpark systems, but I fully understand the enthusiasm Norton riders show for the products. Isn't it possible to get the same performance with the TriSpark module placed in its historical place, on the frame? Whatever the complaints of the Boyer (I don't run these systems either), the fact remains that they've been around for a few decades. I would gladly eat my words if the TriSpark folks would quantitatively address this temperature issue with real data, and would gladly mount their product on my Mk3.
My work experience is solely in the design and building of geophysical instruments that function several miles deep in the earth, where it's really hot; our products were spec'd at 175C, 8 g's continuous vibration, 100 g's shock. Our designs, resulting from several hundred engineers and techs working at three separate centers, failed on average every 30 trips, i.e., every 30 heat cycles of, on average, 20C-130C. After a few hundred cycles, the instruments were simply too costly to maintain, and they were destroyed and replaced with new ones. Admittedly, these instruments were more complicted than an EI system, which is little more than a counter with adjustable phase, but the point I'm trying to make at the onset here is that, even with an enormous engineering effort behind these designs, heat killed them.
Now, what has this story got to do with running an EI system on a Norton? Well, nothing, UNLESS you place the electronics in the engine. Are the temperatures on a Norton engine that similar to what I've experienced in my design work? The data is a bit thin, but let's give it a go.
In the Norton Notice, the monthly publication of the NOCNC, Alan Goldwater, in the late 90's, placed thermocouples on and within his Norton engine and went for a ride. Alan's goal was to spec out the right engine lubricants, so some messaging of his data is necessary to see how it applies to the timing case problem. Alan found that after 10 minutes of 75 mph cruising at an ambient temperature of 32C, he recorded the following stable measurements:
Head 135C
Bottom of jugs 116C
Engine oil intake 93C
When he exited the road and stopped, the temperatures shot up. Idling for 10 minutes yielded the following:
Head 190C (an increase of 55C).
Data does not exist for the oil intake temperature while idling, so we have to guess. My guess is that it rose half of the head temperature rise, or an increase of 25C to 118C. We have to guess again at the jug temperature as well, but let's use the same increase, 25C, to come to an estimate of 141C. I can't believe that the timing cavity can be cooler than the surrounding oil, and is likely hotter due to conduction from the jugs, only a few centimeters of aluminum away. Let's say the maximum temperature of the timing cavity rises to between 118C and 141C. Lads, we are at or above the mil spec limit for electrical components. This is no place to be carrying electronics.
I don't run TriSpark systems, but I fully understand the enthusiasm Norton riders show for the products. Isn't it possible to get the same performance with the TriSpark module placed in its historical place, on the frame? Whatever the complaints of the Boyer (I don't run these systems either), the fact remains that they've been around for a few decades. I would gladly eat my words if the TriSpark folks would quantitatively address this temperature issue with real data, and would gladly mount their product on my Mk3.
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Until there are actual measurements inside the points cover all of this is hypothetical. I volunteer one of you folks with a running bike. :mrgreen:
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Hi All,
I worked at this all day today, went out and got a cheap 30.00 infrared digital temp gage. Got home and took some readings witch were all over the place after two hours working I determined that all readings had to be taken through a 3” inside diameter cardboard tube 12” inches long to block out the sunlight and keep the distance the same each time. Also the red dot must be placed at the same spot each time using land marks. All this just to get readings that made some sense and could be repeated so some degree.
So I had my son drive 5 mile loops all the same route over and over so I could be at the ready just as he pulled up to get the readings very fast. Driving in wind can really cool it off and idling even for a minute can really heat it up. You have to be very quick no time to remove the coat and helmet. So now it’s a two man job.
My goal was to take a series of readings until the temperature stabilized without any gasket as Norton intended. Than once it was stable to add the gasket to see if it had the effect I was looking for. We did nine 5 mile loops and the end of each one I took three readings fast as I could. And Than right back out for another loop and repeat. I took a reading on the timing cover right over the ‘T’ on the Norton then a reading just ½" below the top screw in the points cover and a third reading needed the cover removed and take the reading right over the ‘I’ in the TriSpark logo on the unit. The riding was mixed some short blasts on the highway and some city stop sign work.
Try as I might I need a lot more data and time because there were no dramatic results with high and low readings as we worked along. After seeing the temps climb to 165 F inside the cover and then start to get stable on the fourth loop I added on the fifth loop the Gasket. I got a ten degree drop inside and did another loop and saw my highest spike up to 174F then on the next loop a plunge right down to 88 then two more readings on the last two loops at about 157.
So I am seeing the temp go down with the gasket used on inside of the cover but because of the highs and lows well let’s just say this is not so easy to do with a thirty dollar gage. My hands had to get close to the work and my sense of it is the timing cover gets just a bit hotter as the cover gets cooler along with the module. I could try one longer ride from dead cold with the gasket and then without, but the speed and accuracy needed when taking the readings is harder to do than right after a five mile trip with me waiting. Even a moment’s delay will mess the data.
Moving just a few millimeters one way or the other will mess with the data. So it may come down to how many days I can work on this with no profit while being whipped by many whom have done nothing but think out loud. On top of it all Steve’s product is taking a whipping right along with me at least on a conceptual level and I am sure he doesn’t like that too much because I know how it makes me feel. Many days work to come up with thirty odd gaskets to offer with costly material and laser services to pay up and well oh well. This is the world and no one person can control any given outcome.
On the up side I did get to ride my Norton and the sun came out today. Move on to the next fiasco.
As far as the system being “better” as LAB says hard to measure on a dyno because the feel of it is down at low RPM. Let me give you some examples but first. I just bought three more of these systems they came today two are already spoken for and the third is going on one of my builds. I speak with my wallet. I have installed seven of them on Norton’s and worked with Steve on some bugs early on. He has been wonderful to work with, open to good suggestions and can think on his feet. He stands behind his work in a business that can be very chilly to the end user. I like that.
As Jim Comstock once told me the very best system will never yield more that 15% of the total HP so this is not a place to carry all your eggs if power is your quest. That all said I have seen a nice 1974 with a single mic carb that needed a choke to start hot or cold turn into a bike that will run right away with no choke. A bike you had to dress for and hoped it started to a bike you start and go get dressed. And in another case on a twoAmal-ed stock 1973 850 I had to teach the owner how to start his bike again he has owned it many years and it seemed he knew that it needed a quick kick and a bit of throttle to start well. I had to show him more than once that he need not touch the throttle and started his bike three times in a row with 1/8 of a kick witch he can do now. Happy customers make my day. So sorry some readers and writers have to be so sad. Thanks to all who have been willing to give this little 6.00 gasket a try as I said at the first it can’t hurt much to try aye. Have wonderful summer days with long rides I may get better at testing but then who could you believe twenty people with twenty other tests judge for yourselves.
I worked at this all day today, went out and got a cheap 30.00 infrared digital temp gage. Got home and took some readings witch were all over the place after two hours working I determined that all readings had to be taken through a 3” inside diameter cardboard tube 12” inches long to block out the sunlight and keep the distance the same each time. Also the red dot must be placed at the same spot each time using land marks. All this just to get readings that made some sense and could be repeated so some degree.
So I had my son drive 5 mile loops all the same route over and over so I could be at the ready just as he pulled up to get the readings very fast. Driving in wind can really cool it off and idling even for a minute can really heat it up. You have to be very quick no time to remove the coat and helmet. So now it’s a two man job.
My goal was to take a series of readings until the temperature stabilized without any gasket as Norton intended. Than once it was stable to add the gasket to see if it had the effect I was looking for. We did nine 5 mile loops and the end of each one I took three readings fast as I could. And Than right back out for another loop and repeat. I took a reading on the timing cover right over the ‘T’ on the Norton then a reading just ½" below the top screw in the points cover and a third reading needed the cover removed and take the reading right over the ‘I’ in the TriSpark logo on the unit. The riding was mixed some short blasts on the highway and some city stop sign work.
Try as I might I need a lot more data and time because there were no dramatic results with high and low readings as we worked along. After seeing the temps climb to 165 F inside the cover and then start to get stable on the fourth loop I added on the fifth loop the Gasket. I got a ten degree drop inside and did another loop and saw my highest spike up to 174F then on the next loop a plunge right down to 88 then two more readings on the last two loops at about 157.
So I am seeing the temp go down with the gasket used on inside of the cover but because of the highs and lows well let’s just say this is not so easy to do with a thirty dollar gage. My hands had to get close to the work and my sense of it is the timing cover gets just a bit hotter as the cover gets cooler along with the module. I could try one longer ride from dead cold with the gasket and then without, but the speed and accuracy needed when taking the readings is harder to do than right after a five mile trip with me waiting. Even a moment’s delay will mess the data.
Moving just a few millimeters one way or the other will mess with the data. So it may come down to how many days I can work on this with no profit while being whipped by many whom have done nothing but think out loud. On top of it all Steve’s product is taking a whipping right along with me at least on a conceptual level and I am sure he doesn’t like that too much because I know how it makes me feel. Many days work to come up with thirty odd gaskets to offer with costly material and laser services to pay up and well oh well. This is the world and no one person can control any given outcome.
On the up side I did get to ride my Norton and the sun came out today. Move on to the next fiasco.
As far as the system being “better” as LAB says hard to measure on a dyno because the feel of it is down at low RPM. Let me give you some examples but first. I just bought three more of these systems they came today two are already spoken for and the third is going on one of my builds. I speak with my wallet. I have installed seven of them on Norton’s and worked with Steve on some bugs early on. He has been wonderful to work with, open to good suggestions and can think on his feet. He stands behind his work in a business that can be very chilly to the end user. I like that.
As Jim Comstock once told me the very best system will never yield more that 15% of the total HP so this is not a place to carry all your eggs if power is your quest. That all said I have seen a nice 1974 with a single mic carb that needed a choke to start hot or cold turn into a bike that will run right away with no choke. A bike you had to dress for and hoped it started to a bike you start and go get dressed. And in another case on a twoAmal-ed stock 1973 850 I had to teach the owner how to start his bike again he has owned it many years and it seemed he knew that it needed a quick kick and a bit of throttle to start well. I had to show him more than once that he need not touch the throttle and started his bike three times in a row with 1/8 of a kick witch he can do now. Happy customers make my day. So sorry some readers and writers have to be so sad. Thanks to all who have been willing to give this little 6.00 gasket a try as I said at the first it can’t hurt much to try aye. Have wonderful summer days with long rides I may get better at testing but then who could you believe twenty people with twenty other tests judge for yourselves.
I am not sure how easy this will be on a tri-spark since it looks like the componets have been sealed in some form of plastic? material not been involved in electronics do not know the techical term for this or what the material is and do not know what is required to remove it without damaging the enclosed components. I would not like anyone to jump the gun on this as tri-spark have probably only just recieved the unit and have not e-mailed me yet. I fitted the tri-spark and was much happier with it than the Boyer but even before I installed I was concerned (having an engineeering background) with the effects of a heating and cooling cycle on the stator hence the spare system I always carry. Also failures can occur with any system that could be due to many issues not necccasarily the design/location of the unit.B+Bogus said:Boyers are known for fracturing the leads on the stator plate (back to the unrestrained thrashing), but the Trispark is more rugged, with appropriate installation advice regarding padding out the wiring (with a nice insulator
If these units have a failure mode - and evidently one does exist, I'd really want to understand exactly what it is before I plan my next European Tour... They're not cheap enough to carry a spare :cry:
I'm still a fan of the Trispark, and the only downside for me is the price. I hope we get some clarity regarding the failed unit, because nobody likes it when doubt creeps in :roll:
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All this is indeed a lot of guesswork .rick in seattle said:
Plus the cavity gets additional heat from another source : the camshaft on which the magnet plate is directly bolted .
By pushing up the lifters against the valve springs , the camshaft generates its own heat ..how much is another guess .
Norbsa :
I ( and I am shure everybody else ) really apreciate the time and effort you put into this , but what we really need to know is how hot the Trispark will get ,not under normal riding conditons , but the peak temperature under extreme conditions , like a parade on the strip in Las Vegas ,the 4th of July with plj850's thermocouple attached ..
I can't do it : Belgium is too cold and wet ..or am I too lazy ?.
Hortons Norton
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1 failure and the worlds coming to an end, And we don't even know why it failed yet. I'm just gonna ride and not worry about it at this point, But I do have an extra points cover that I may try an idea with. If at some point we start to see these units go bad that would be different but for now mine seem to work great and I have never had any issues whatsoever. Lets ride!!!! :roll:
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ludwig said:
I think the added weight of the measuring devices would be too much for you to stand. :mrgreen:
N
nortonspeed
Guest
pelican said:
Interesting, what kind of vent do you have in your gearbox? You mean the little brass tube at the top I recon.
N
nortonspeed
Guest
Yes that's what I meant. The pointcover should already have a vent (just a little hole) at the botom.
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