New Norton 961 inner designer

Yee gods and I thought it was only us Brits that knocked anything remotely successful! I think Norton's designer said it all. From what we read Kenny ran out of funding and I'm sure he'd planned to tool properly for manufacture so he could make a profit. Remember all the knockers out there this guy was one of Triumph's designers and they seem to be doing Ok. We may not like all they produce but a lot of customers do. I used to work for a US company making seat motors. We loved putting stuff into production on soft untested tooling and wondered why we f***ed up. It was often worn out by the time we'd modified the parts to work properly and then had to be re-done. Main company is now dead and all that's left is a tiny outfit in Juarez. Norton may not survive long term (I hope they do) but at least they're trying to do it properly.

skinthespin said:

*Passes Mike a pencil*

Crack on then!

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Hold onto that pencil long enough to draw the new P11 to compete with the Hypermotard and don't forget to add some wheels for getting dirty as an option, 18"-19" will do 8) I bet you could get a lot of old school adventure types to bite. I know I'd be more interested in it than another roadster. Triumph have been doing well with that lame retro scrambler. You can do better. Keep it light and simple.

Will

I like it. I've always liked it.
I wanted very much for Kenny to succeed. Unfortunately it was not to be.
However his accomplishments and contributions to the Norton community should not be diminished.
In the grand scheme of things it does seem a little more 'proper' that Norton be built in the UK.
I wish them well.

MichaelB said:

In the grand scheme of things it does seem a little more 'proper' that Norton be built in the UK.

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Agreed.

I too have yet to meet anyone who did not like the design of the new Commando. I have even heard people with no interest in classics praise the design. Hats off to all at Norton for making Dreer's inspired prototype into a production motorcycle. I think it would be more valid to compare the new Norton range to the current Ducati Sport Classic range rather than with the original Commandos. I would guess (just from reading the road tests) that the differences between the old and new Nortons would be as big as that between bevel drive and belt drive Dukes.

I really do want to see one in the flesh, or better still, get to ride one!

Can ya imagine how much better it might be if new Norton hired on Kenny to help market them. They won't really take off until enough horse power to keep up with most the new sports bikes. I'd buy one if rubber mounted and helm linked.
Kenny has since gone back into sponsored bike drag racing on Oriental engine.

The pushrod twin engine will never approach the power output of DOHC water-cooled engines with similar displacement.

Modern 600s can eat up the new Norton; FORGET about even thinking about comparing a modern 900+ cc bike!

The pushrod twin engine will never approach the power output of DOHC water-cooled engines with similar displacement.

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Hehe, we shall see about that dear sir, we shall see. Especially if not seeking pure land speed records in a straight line, but the get up and go to full speeds in straights that end in good turns. Some of the fastest dragsters are the V-twin air cooled push rods. Anywho can you picture the stir if an obsolete design kicked some new meat's butts in public media?

Hobot,

Forget about massive hp numbers. To have a decent runner for the target audience they are already in the ballpark. Good torque and healthy mid-range is what you want for fun and games. I believe we have a member that rides a Hypermotard, ask him if he thinks his bike lacks power. My Superduke pushes out about 110 at the wheel and is a lot of fun, but the best part is the midrange that I believe is probably in the same area as the Hyper or air-cooled Monster. Lightweight and well balanced bikes with these numbers are wonderful rides. Would you really rather have a Nemesis, V8, 200 horse racer? The new Beemer pumps out 180hp, where other than a race course are you going to use this?
If you get 80 hp out of Peel on a daily basis I think you would be extremely happy with her.

Will

willh said:

To have a decent runner for the target audience they are already in the ballpark. Good torque and healthy mid-range is what you want for fun and games. I believe we have a member that rides a Hypermotard, ask him if he thinks his bike lacks power. My Superduke pushes out about 110 at the wheel and is a lot of fun, but the best part is the midrange that I believe is probably in the same area as the Hyper or air-cooled Monster. Lightweight and well balanced bikes with these numbers are wonderful rides.

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Spot on, Will.

The problem for me is that if you are going to make an 80HP bike nowadays - it's a cruiser. DON't make it look like it's going to keep up with a Ducati of the same style. Norton USED to race and they had sufficient power/light weight to do reasonably well, even by the Commando era. But now they are making a motorcycle that looks like it could compete with current superbikes but is dramatically underpowered to do so.

SO...who do you sell this bike to? Old guys like us who would like to see Norton back? OK, if that's your market target, you have screwed up massively. You WANT young people to buy bikes! Remember back to how you viewed all this in your 20's? Now, given the choice between a current 80HP Norton and a current 130+ HP Ducati (or Honda, or Suz, Yammie, Kwacker, whatever) that weighs no more and whose bikes actively participate in WSB racing, which would you pick?

Again, if their market is the few nostalgic old guys who used to own Nortons, then the new Norton will never amount to much. They are going to have to match looks with performance. Otherwise it would just be embarrassing to have one while out riding with your friends in the twisties...

MexicoMike said:

The problem for me is that if you are going to make an 80HP bike nowadays - it's a cruiser. DON't make it look like it's going to keep up with a Ducati of the same style. Norton USED to race and they had sufficient power/light weight to do reasonably well, even by the Commando era. But now they are making a motorcycle that looks like it could compete with current superbikes but is dramatically underpowered to do so.

SO...who do you sell this bike to? Old guys like us who would like to see Norton back? OK, if that's your market target, you have screwed up massively. You WANT young people to buy bikes! Remember back to how you viewed all this in your 20's? Now, given the choice between a current 80HP Norton and a current 130+ HP Ducati (or Honda, or Suz, Yammie, Kwacker, whatever) that weighs no more and whose bikes actively participate in WSB racing, which would you pick?

Again, if their market is the few nostalgic old guys who used to own Nortons, then the new Norton will never amount to much. They are going to have to match looks with performance. Otherwise it would just be embarrassing to have one while out riding with your friends in the twisties...

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The problem with race replica bikes is they are too narrow focused. They make piss poor street bikes in my opinion. Horrible in slow speed environments. Ergonomics that kill you at anything below 70mph and handling that doesn't wake up until you hit 100. They may be awesome on track, road not so much. If you even think of tapping the power your risking loosing license or worse. Bikes have changed a lot in 20 years. 120hp isn't much these days for race reps.

In tight twisties my 55+ hp single spanked sportbikes. 80 hp torque y lightweight aircooled bike should be able to keep up with most groups where the straights are short.

Too be able to payroll a future Superbike they will have to sell streetbikes. I'm pretty sure Ducati makes it's money selling Monsters, Multistradas, and Hypermotards, not 70 000$, 200hp Desmosidicis. If the new Nortons are on par with the current crop of aircooled Ducs, hp, handling, and weight wise, I see no reason to fail. The Norton should be better and offer all the same real world moto pleasure with a name and no desmo. What is the average age of a duc monster owner? 25? The same marketing that works for Ducati, Triumph, and to a lesser extant Harley will bring in the younger buyers if the price is right. For now they sell to the old guys and Yups until the production is ramped up and cost comes down.

If they were available a few years ago at the 15 or so thou that Kenny was saying, I would have one.

Yes, no chance for the new Norton against the high hp beasts out there.

Wit 80 hp, aircooled, low-rev torque, the New Norton might actually be quite interesting in an all-road version.
Keep it light, give it carbs instead of injection, have it looking good like the eighties GS (the radiator on modern allroads prevents that), give it good suspension with extra travel (not necessarily expensive Ohlins), and one would have the proper new Norton for riding distances and days on good and less good surfaces.
But this is personal I guess.

Still I wonder: how many forum visitors would be interested in a touring / allroad version of the new Norton?

If they made a Commando fastback, I might be interested. Oh, wait, I HAVE a Commando fastback... Oh well.

Kenny came out with a monoshock early on. It was a cleaner looking bike. Then the marketers forced the twin shocks on him. Ill take a monoshock over twin shocks anyday. Some marketing decisions are just stupid in my estimation. Perhaps part of the reason it went under first time around..

Speaking as someone who owns a 961 and has hit 125 mph
With ease on it I beg to differ.
As I said on my earlier post it's the bollocks !
Buy one, as my 44 th bike in a long line
It's ticks all the boxes

Good to hear Richard.

jseng1 said:

Kenny came out with a monoshock early on. It was a cleaner looking bike. Then the marketers forced the twin shocks on him. Ill take a monoshock over twin shocks anyday. Some marketing decisions are just stupid in my estimation. Perhaps part of the reason it went under first time around..

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Ill take a monoshock over twin shocks anyday

Why? Just looks? Jim

If ya like to run over the ton in the wide opens get the hi HP buzzing full plastic bikes. If ya like zinging around the turns and relaxing at speed in the opens then the past and present Commando models fits the bill it sounds like.

I've seen pros and con's on mono vs dual shocks, so all ears how one tops the other?
I favor the old school duals myself, at least in my meager comparing.

hobot

Well in my years I have been told by the shock people that a monoshock has a clear advantage in long trave off road type systems but for street and roadrace bikes, twin shocks and monoshocks can be set up to work identically. It is true that monoshocks have received the majority of the modern advancements because they are the currant fad but if you are willing to spend as much for twin shocks as a good monoshock then they can work equally as well. Ohlins or Works Performance shocks are just a couple of the people who make twin shocks that will work as well as any mono-shock when they are set up correctly. Jim