New Norton dealerships…

Voodooo said:
Back in those days the Norton was a comparatively priced motorcycle with equal performance for the near same price point as other brands of the time. Not today.

Today it’s 2 times the price and 2/3rds the hp.
It’s definitely a boutique brand.

Oh! Let’s not forget, even Norton doesn’t know it’s own part numbers lol
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Hmmmmmm I think the term 'boutique' is a bit of a discussion point - see my comment in the Welford meet-up thread. Well after an hour on my 961CR down the motorway sometimes touching speeds of 71mph hemhem I certainly did not look, feel or smell like I'd been in a boutique! We have now reached the point where engine performance is not the issue - it's possible to produce bike with way more performance than is useable so now the most significant thing is how the electronics delivers the power to us. The pure HP figure your bike produces has become a bar room willy-waving figure. So is a Ducati V4 with more horsepower than anyone can use on the roads a boutique show-off bike? The 961 delivers an appropriate level of power to see off 99% of cars and excellent handling/braking with minimal electronic intervention.
 
As a read through your post Clive, I thought your last sentence was gonna close with ‘with minimal electronic reliability‘ 🤣

As for performance, we’ll find out if they can keep up with the old ones at Cadwell eh (cue sound of gauntlet hitting the floor)?!?
 
As the old saying goes when it comes to lap times the most significant component is the big nut on the saddle........
 
Clive said:
Hmmmmmm I think the term 'boutique' is a bit of a discussion point - see my comment in the Welford meet-up thread. Well after an hour on my 961CR down the motorway sometimes touching speeds of 71mph hemhem I certainly did not look, feel or smell like I'd been in a boutique! We have now reached the point where engine performance is not the issue - it's possible to produce bike with way more performance than is useable so now the most significant thing is how the electronics delivers the power to us. The pure HP figure your bike produces has become a bar room willy-waving figure. So is a Ducati V4 with more horsepower than anyone can use on the roads a boutique show-off bike? The 961 delivers an appropriate level of power to see off 99% of cars and excellent handling/braking with minimal electronic intervention.
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I’m not disagreeing with the hp comment. But if the 961 isn’t a boutique bike, explain the price point on a bike that’s two times the cost of a triumph or other cafe style bike with better performance for less money.

Not to mention the cheaper and more hp bikes don’t have the problems as the 961. Oh and I forgot, why is the 961 twice the price and yet the parts are made in China? What exactly is the cause for the selling price of the 961? It’s definitely not new or up to date. It’s been out for what? 13 years now?

Do you think a 961 can out run a 750 or 850 commando?
 
British Dealer news sums it pretty well this month regarding dealers, as do the latest financial figures. The sums Norton are burning through must make the owners swallow hard and wonder if it was a good idea buying the brand. Even with TVS being well placed financially the sums are I suspect well beyond what they imagined.
 
What boutique really means is that they want the advertising of motorcycles in dealerships but they won't stock more than a floor model or two at the given rate bikes are leaving the plant. I imagine Norton went to these dealers not the other way around to get them to
 
I guess the boutique reference is a further attempt to differentiate themselves from the mass produced opposition; it fits with their marketing as a premium/prestige hand built brand. I read boutique and think of high end clothing fashion but hey, I’m a crusty old bugger!

Maybe also to conjure up images of a few immaculately clean mechanics (in pristine monikered coveralls) building just a few gleaming machines atop well spaced bike lifts - as opposed to a conveyor belt assembly of endless engines and whirring robot arms.

I guess their marketing team has factored in that they may alienate a few oil encrusted relics like us, in an attempt to appeal to another crowd. Here’s hoping it succeeds.
 
Ive walked into a dozen or more boutique dealers in the last few years. One constant is that almost all of them are out of business from not having good factory support or no good service options. Also when you sell a "premium" product they tend to get ridden less so they need less service. It's not a win-win unless you have a multi-brand service dept
 
City Garage said:
Ive walked into a dozen or more boutique dealers in the last few years. One constant is that almost all of them are out of business from not having good factory support or no good service options. Also when you sell a "premium" product they tend to get ridden less so they need less service. It's not a win-win unless you have a multi-brand service dept
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Yep, luckily they have a motoring giant behind them. Not going to go too well if all a punter can see in the boutique dealer is a (admittedly beautiful) 961 though! They need to get their fingers out and get the V4 variants in there and then crack on with the new models.

TVS have been doing this for a long time though, albeit with volume rather than prestige. No doubt they will have factored a slow start in - a loss leader opening for want of a more accurate term.
 
Voodooo said:
Not to mention the cheaper and more hp bikes don’t have the problems as the 961. Oh and I forgot, why is the 961 twice the price and yet the parts are made in China? What exactly is the cause for the selling price of the 961? It’s definitely not new or up to date. It’s been out for what? 13 years now?

Do you think a 961 can out run a 750 or 850 commando?
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I think the point is the definition of 'boutique'. Is it a boutique bike if it's not the fastest bike for the money. Or the most capable off-road. Or the best value for the every-day commuter? A bike choice is a very personal thing - probably more so than a car these days. It is very much an expression of the character you are or who you would like to be. I am in the lucky position to be able to chose a bike which gives me pleasure to look at and pleasure to ride without too much concern for the price. Most 961 riders are of the lucky age where we are no longer 'fashion conscious' and have not bought the bike to 'look good on' or follow a trend which I would see as a definition of a boutique bike.

The disparate sourcing of parts is common knowledge and really only bothers me from the point of obtaining spares. That the gearbox wasn't crafted by British apron-clad micrometer-wielding engineers is a fact of modern life. The same modern life that fixes my cataract in a 15 minute walk-in walk-out operation. If your criticisms of the 961 lead you to define it as a boutique bike then to you it is a boutique bike. Is a Harley a boutique bike? Is a RE Continental a boutique bike?

Out running a 750/850 commando? Don't know and don't really care - I'm sure mine stops better but quicker on a track? Is a 961 faster than a Manx? Probably depends on the circuit. At Cadwell on a 115bhp modern Ducati I was left by a nutter on a Moto Morini 350 hanging off the side with skinny tyres squirming all over the place. Like I said on the NOC Welford thread the dirtiest most used bikes there were the 961s while a lot of the old machinery which in their day was built to be ridden was polished to perfection. Make of that what you will. Regards Clive
 
I think there much confusion, TVS are the 3rd largest manufacturer globally by volume, financially they are way down the list against others who manufacture far less numbers. They have shareholders and I doubt any shareholder would accept the loss rate that Solihull creates every 12 months. As it stands, there is nothing in the air that will either recover the total losses so far or even allow them to break even in the future with production underway whenever that will be. From what I and others have seen and what they themselves produce in reports a profitable Norton brand is never going to happen, why would shareholders put up with that.

Boutique or not, or even a free tattoo with each bike or T shirt bought, I just see these dealers going in other more profitable directions.
 
Clive said:
I think the point is the definition of 'boutique'. Is it a boutique bike if it's not the fastest bike for the money. Or the most capable off-road. Or the best value for the every-day commuter? A bike choice is a very personal thing - probably more so than a car these days. It is very much an expression of the character you are or who you would like to be. I am in the lucky position to be able to chose a bike which gives me pleasure to look at and pleasure to ride without too much concern for the price. Most 961 riders are of the lucky age where we are no longer 'fashion conscious' and have not bought the bike to 'look good on' or follow a trend which I would see as a definition of a boutique bike.

The disparate sourcing of parts is common knowledge and really only bothers me from the point of obtaining spares. That the gearbox wasn't crafted by British apron-clad micrometer-wielding engineers is a fact of modern life. The same modern life that fixes my cataract in a 15 minute walk-in walk-out operation. If your criticisms of the 961 lead you to define it as a boutique bike then to you it is a boutique bike. Is a Harley a boutique bike? Is a RE Continental a boutique bike?

Out running a 750/850 commando? Don't know and don't really care - I'm sure mine stops better but quicker on a track? Is a 961 faster than a Manx? Probably depends on the circuit. At Cadwell on a 115bhp modern Ducati I was left by a nutter on a Moto Morini 350 hanging off the side with skinny tyres squirming all over the place. Like I said on the NOC Welford thread the dirtiest most used bikes there were the 961s while a lot of the old machinery which in their day was built to be ridden was polished to perfection. Make of that what you will. Regards Clive
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My point about the 961 being called a boutique brand / model by some is, the cost.
It’s no secret that the 961 cost more new than that of the competitors.

What exactly did we pay nearly twice for?
All brands have outsourced parts and manufacturing.
The quality of the Donington 961 is lesser than that of the competitors.
As is its performance.

I’d say it’s boutique because way less we’re produced and sold.

I would never consider Harley Davidson a “boutique” brand. Same for RE. They make and sell at a mass scale. Norton Donington and TVS do not even come close.

I have Norton Tee Shirts, they definitely don’t seem boutique to me.
One seems to have a loose thread on the arm pit.


😅
 

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I understand that we are all armchair industrialists, who have an acute understanding of the finances of production.
We don't know the actual corporate model that is in effect at Norton/TVS, but there must be one.
Will it work, and successfully return Norton to the ranks of actual motorcycle manufacturers?
Perhaps, but let's not hold a funeral for Norton/TVS just yet.
There just may be someone at the mill who actually knows what he is doing.
Remember the sly old dude who said, "The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated."
Nothing wrong with TVS making haste slowly.
 
They’re not even trying to make money from the current line up IMHO.

They’re building a brand. And they’ve actually said this, A LOT !

They’re building a brand upon which they can launch future EVs etc with a more prestigious name… and price tag… than if they were labelled TVS.

THAT‘S what they’ve sold to the shareholders…
 
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Stephen_Spencer said:
I guess the boutique reference is a further attempt to differentiate themselves from the mass produced opposition; it fits with their marketing as a premium/prestige hand built brand. I read boutique and think of high end clothing fashion but hey, I’m a crusty old bugger!

Maybe also to conjure up images of a few immaculately clean mechanics (in pristine monikered coveralls) building just a few gleaming machines atop well spaced bike lifts - as opposed to a conveyor belt assembly of endless engines and whirring robot arms.

I guess their marketing team has factored in that they may alienate a few oil encrusted relics like us, in an attempt to appeal to another crowd. Here’s hoping it succeeds.
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What new motorcycle isn’t hand assembled?
Perhaps Nortons don’t go down a moving assembly line, but are they all not hand assembled?

The Nortons don’t go down a assembly line because they can’t afford the expense of a full moving assembly line because they don’t make / sell enough of them to cover the cost of a moving assembly line.

Just as I don’t see a Norton only motorcycle dealership happening.
In my area we have Ducati dealers that sell just ducati. BMW that sell just BMW, Harley’s that sell just Harley’s.
We have Triumph that sell, triumph, MV Agusta. Or another that sells Triumph and Indian. We also have an Indian only dealer.

When it comes to the Japanese brands, it’s always Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki or Kawasaki and KTM.
OR also Honda and KTM dealer.
 
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Voodooo said:
What new motorcycle isn’t hand assembled?
Perhaps Nortons don’t go down a moving assembly line, but are they all not hand assembled?

The Nortons don’t go down a assembly line because they can’t afford the expense of a full moving assembly line because they don’t make / sell enough of them to cover the cost of a moving assembly line.

Just as I don’t see a Norton only motorcycle dealership happening.
In my area we have Ducati dealers that sell just ducati. BMW that sell just BMW, Harley’s that sell just Harley’s.
We have Triumph that sell, triumph, MV Agusta. Or another that sells Triumph and Indian. We also have an Indian only dealer.

When it comes to the Japanese brands, it’s always Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki or Kawasaki and KTM.
OR also Honda and KTM dealer.
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Not a literal reference V2D3 - the clue is in the term ‘to conjure up images’!

I strongly suspect that most (if not all) major brand motorcycle manufacturers have significant automation, not present at Norton because they are currently a low volume manufacturer - less to do with cost. If TVS thought that more money/sales could be generated into the future if some processes were automate, they would no doubt provide it.

Not sure anybody is suggesting a Norton only dealer is likely. I don’t thing that such a dealer exists does it? Beyond Harley of course.

You may be generating context that is not really present in the conversation but hey, that’s ok. :D 👍
 
Norton will have built a factory that has the automation needed for current products and volumes and will have allocated space in which they can insert automation at a later date as and when it’s viable to do so.

This means the current ‘box’ (building) will have spare space, possibly quite a bit of it, but it’s relatively cheap to build a bigger ‘box’ that allows flexibility for the future.

This is basically standard practice in manufacturing engineering.
 
Last time I looked there was not much 'production' equipment, just fabrication, but a huge investment in measurement and quality control. Does this imply validating bought-in parts?
 
Clive said:
Last time I looked there was not much 'production' equipment, just fabrication, but a huge investment in measurement and quality control. Does this imply validating bought-in parts?
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Not necessarily, as I already mentioned, they may tool up for more in house production later.
 
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