More Norton history?

Some things are worth doing. This Petty Manx looks as though it has the 18 inch wheels and the 26 degree rake. It would have good rubber, but might not oversteer when gassed mid-corner. If the bike oversteers when gassed when on a lean, but stays more upright, it can be gassed much harder. To understand it, it needs to be experienced.
 
quawk said:
Seems like, comparatively, the Japanese bike makers have been pretty constant from the time they started producing bikes to current day.
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Not really, there were many Japanese manufacturers that fought it out in the 50s and early 60s before bikes were shipped to the US and Europe. Dozens that made bikes then went bankrupt or were gobbled up by bigger players. See, e.g. Lilac. Bridgestone was perhaps the only one that imported significant numbers to the US that did not survive until today.
 
I once rode a Bridgestone 350. It was a quick bike, but I did not like it, and I don't know the reason. Adrenalin is strange stuff. A bike which has an even heart-beat always feels better. I would much rather compete by being faster in corners than faster down the straights. Just blowing other guys to the weeds as we fly down the straights, does not really mean much.
 
Fast Eddie said:
Not at all, just a historic observation. And a recognition of a pretty masterful strategic move by the US.
Britain would almost certainly have done exactly the same had the roles been reversed !
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Agree, but with hindsight was it a smart move? US economy from the worlds largest creditor to the debtor.
 
hybridracer said:
Spitfire? As I recall, spitfires were for girls while we boys had midgets & sprites.
The P51 was built to a British specification and only worked properly once it got a British engine.
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however, the British engine was built en masse in America, which was vital, as Uk couldn’t have made them in quantity at the time.
 
acotrel said:
I once rode a Bridgestone 350. It was a quick bike, but I did not like it, and I don't know the reason. Adrenalin is strange stuff. A bike which has an even heart-beat always feels better. I would much rather compete by being faster in corners than faster down the straights. Just blowing other guys to the weeds as we fly down the straights, does not really mean much.
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💡
 
hybridracer said:
Spitfire? As I recall, spitfires were for girls while we boys had midgets & sprites.
The P51 was built to a British specification and only worked properly once it got a British engine.
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And designed by a German immigrant to the US, so let's just say it was a multi-national effort.
 
TRWham said:
And designed by a German immigrant to the US, so let's just say it was a multi-national effort.
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Two completely different design aims. One was done as a high performance interceptor, the other as a long range fighter.
As another, far more competent writer once put it, take the Spitfire for dogfighting over the UK, the Mustang for over Berlin - but only because the Spitfire would never make it back from Berlin without refuelling :cool:
 
SteveBorland said:
Two completely different design aims. One was done as a high performance interceptor, the other as a long range fighter.
As another, far more competent writer once put it, take the Spitfire for dogfighting over the UK, the Mustang for over Berlin - but only because the Spitfire would never make it back from Berlin without refuelling :cool:
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They needed an Interstate version.
 
Richard Tool said:
At high altitude - and subjectively ( and this is coming from an American) the Spit ( the aircraft) is more attractive.
How can anyone not like a British car such as the E - type Jaguar ?
Even Enzo Ferrari with an ego the size of the planet said it was the most beautiful car ever made and I must agree .
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Beautiful, yes, but pretty much every one who has driven one says it has a ridiculous driving position and very slow gearchange!

(Of course, I would still buy one for my wife, that is if I could afford it after garaging my personal preference of an XK120/140!)
 
SteveA said:
Beautiful, yes, but pretty much every one who has driven one says it has a ridiculous driving position and very slow gearchange!

(Of course, I would still buy one for my wife, that is if I could afford it after garaging my personal preference of an XK120/140!)
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"Only pretty, what a pity"
 
acotrel said:
Some things are worth doing. This Petty Manx looks as though it has the 18 inch wheels and the 26 degree rake. It would have good rubber, but might not oversteer when gassed mid-corner. If the bike oversteers when gassed when on a lean, but stays more upright, it can be gassed much harder. To understand it, it needs to be experienced.
Click to expand...

Interesting but it is hardly a Manx. It has a different frame and it looks to have a longer swing arm and rear shock angle = totally different handling.

It's like what Tood Henning #454 did with the Hondas CB350 and 450s he built with a Drixton type frames and getting some big horse power with hundreds of hours on a dyno and custom made heads, pistons and cams. He was beating all the Premier 500 class bikes until Barber and Team Obsolete brought out the ex-factory MV Auguta and Benelli and other priceless ex factory bikes. But Henning was always racking up many Daytona wins over the years I was pit crewing. It ended up being over 230 wins at Daytona, a feat no one will ever get close to. Currently his son Ari is racing them and proving Todd's bike still rule with the new style cornering, you slide both tires fearlessly and keep it on the gas.

One weekend Don Vesco rode my Atlas/ Commando race bike at Laconia, he asked why I put a longer Commando swingarm in it, I told him I was trying to put more weight on the front wheel. Funny thing was I didn't know that he had developed putting longer swingarms in the TZ Yamahas he built to tame the handling.

Vesco #11 was one of America's top racers and tuner and bike builder and was known as the fastest man on two wheels because of his Bonneville record runs. My Atlas wasn't the fastest bike he ever rode, but he really like the engine's torque and how he could drop the revs in a turn and just motor out of the hairpin turn in second gear with the close ratio 4 speed in it. I didn't know at the time that he had an old Manx and at his home track, Willow Springs, he could beat up on the modern 600cc class racers with it. He even was accused of cheating CC wise, by a kid, he left behind in the turns with a 1950s Manx. It's amazing what you can do with the skills of a legend.
 
The 'Manx "actually sounds more like a Commando than an old Manx, My Commandos with 2 into one with a Supertrap muffler sound similar and have similar HP, but my bikes are 100LB+ heavier.
 
The only Manx I ever rode was the 1961 500cc version which my mate had bought from Ginger Molloy in New Zealand. Until I rode that, I did not actually know the reason they are so fast. It is the steering geometry and the position of the motor. My 500cc Triton was faster than the Manx when the guy on it did not know how to use it. When we road race, most of us are at higher angles of lean, and very careful in corners. The Manx oversteers with less lean when it is gassed in mid-corner. You can accelerate out of corners much faster, so it is overall faster. I was lucky I rode that bike, because when I encountered the same thing in my Seeley 850, I recognised it. Even then, using that much throttle in mid-corner took a leap of faith.
A good thing to do when first riding any race bike, is ride it into a corner in the middle of the road and gas it hard enough to make it squat - take note and see if it either tends to run wide, or steers in the direction you want to go. If it does the latter, it can be gassed much harder. I think most bikes tend to run wide, especially road bikes - safer for beginners. 1970s Japanese two-strokes are probably neutral handling because of the way the power is delivered.
I have only used that handling characteristic of my Seeley 850 in one race, and it was bloody ridiculous. The speed differential in the corners was big, but it would not be easy for somebody to move offline and get in front of me. So it is probably OK.
I do everything slowly.
 
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Carl H said:
Interesting but it is hardly a Manx. It has a different frame and it looks to have a longer swing arm and rear shock angle = totally different handling.
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That’s overly harsh IMHO.

Ray Petty took up where the factory left off when they closed the race dept doors in ‘62. He (albeit not alone) kept the Manx competitive for another 10 years, which is nothing short of remarkable when you look at the technological advances that took place in that time.

You are right that it is different, the frame is lower, shorter (hence longer swinging arm) and has the engine mounted further forward.

But a Petty Manx is a Manx in its own right, with a well deserved reputation in motorcycle racing history.
 

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