MKIII stator/rotor clearance strategies

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As I believe has been mentioned, one can skim the rotor to a smaller diameter to get the required clearance -- at a performance cost, however. In my BMW wrenching days we used to have alternator rotors rewound rather than replaced. The motor shop that rewound the rotors would take a skim cut at the end of the job to make sure they were true. After several customers complained the batteries would not stay up after the rewind, I investigated and found that a cut on the rotor reduced the output from 20A spec to as little as 14A depending on how much they cut. We complained. Ultimately, we changed motor shops when they continued with the skim cuts.
Thomas,
Unlike most cars and modern motorcycles, Commandos do not use a wire wound alternator rotor. It is a permanent magnet device, with no brushes or wires attached. Your observations regarding increased clearance between the rotor and the stator are still valid.
 
As an update, I have now been able to get things to where with the stator studs removed, I can get the plastic shim method to center everything much closer to proper. This tells me that further reduction of the stud diameters should get me to a workable solution. The Andover Norton outrigger actually had a bit looser tolerance than the original one so I did not end up having to dremel away any material on it to accommodate the shift. On the original I would have needed to though. As the studs are the easiest parts replaced out of all of this, it seems like a happy solution to me. I did set the chaincase stud recently, but it is good advice and certainly worth double checking as it wouldn't be the only thing on this bike I did incorrectly the first time. I will verify whether or not its causing any of my problems tomorrow.


Cheers,
Anthony

MKIII stator/rotor clearance strategies
 
I personally find that drilling out the holes in the stator is the easiest way to get clearance (I use a simple but sturdy bench drill). It also helps when fitting / removing as the holes are so tight they can catch on the threads in my experience.

I cut a longer strip of milk bottle material and wrap it around the rotor and leave it there whilst tightening everything up.

The cNw kit pictured uses Allen head screws to secure the stator, on applications that use normal studs and nuts, I found it helpful to use smaller OD 12 point nuts as a ‘solution’ to the excess potting material.

Not a MK111, but same issues…

99959015-AE4E-4601-B6D3-0E17AA5B7600.jpeg


CE4B2900-2CB5-46C6-9C44-DCFB256A8A34.jpeg
 
I'm coming late to this thread. From what I've read, Les [L.A.B.] and Ron are the people offering you knowledgeable, useful advice. If, as Ron suggests, that your rotor O.D and stator I.D. are not parallel [left to right axis], then perhaps the issue is that you do not have the chaincase [inner primary] support stud properly adjusted. See

Chaincase Support Stud

It might be worth the effort to make a small adjustment to this support. Just a suggestion and worth what you paid for it.

That's a good idea!!! (see #4) :-)

Seriously, though, from the original Mk3 Spanish Mechanic:

'Make sure the central adjustable support nut if fitted behind the cover with the abutment nut slackened off, in readiness for adjustment after the outrigger nuts are tightened'

However, also from the manual:

'Any misalignment of the stator mounting nuts... can only be corrected by very careful slight re-alignment of the studs'

!!!!

Assuming pattern parts are within OE tolerance, of course...
 
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However, also from the manual:

'Any misalignment of the stator mounting nuts[studs]... can only be corrected by very careful slight re-alignment of the studs'

!!!!

Yes, that information seems to have been copied from the pre-Mk3 manual so isn't correct for the Mk3. :)
 
I found it helpful to use smaller OD 12 point nuts as a ‘solution’ to the excess potting material.
On the CNW that I was referring to, the material had to be relieved from the side facing the support plate, not front side - the clearance issue was with the raised bosses on the separator plate, and it would not center correctly until some of the potting was sanded away.

Just seems like a Mk 3 could suffer from the same issue.
 
On the CNW that I was referring to, the material had to be relieved from the side facing the support plate, not front side - the clearance issue was with the raised bosses on the separator plate, and it would not center correctly until some of the potting was sanded away.

Just seems like a Mk 3 could suffer from the same issue.
Agreed.
My point is in addition.
I have found insufficient clearance to put a proper socket on the normal nuts, fitting smaller 12 point jobs negated any need to remove any potting material.
 
Agreed.
My point is in addition.
I have found insufficient clearance to put a proper socket on the normal nuts, fitting smaller 12 point jobs negated any need to remove any potting material.
Yes - They are an odd nut - 5/16" UNF with 7/16" AF - I have made my own in the past in a pinch by drilling out a 1/4" nut and tapping it 5/16".

I have also run across a couple of instances where somebody has managed to get regular 5/16" nuts on and tightened down - had a heck of a time getting them off!! Was close to turning down a 1/2" socket...
 
Hopefully the OP can file/bend his way to nirvana, but again, given the position of the problem (and assuming it doesn't change position with rotation) I'd be inclined to eventually check the integrity of the chain/crank case interface.
A lot of f*cking about on the Mk3, I know, but not beyond the realms of credibility that a burr, piece of swarf/old gasket could be preventing it from sitting 100% as God intended......

But maybe not.......
 
I used a flap wheel on the inside of the (Lucas RM23) stator resulting in a tight 8 thou. clearance.

Sometime later I removed a small amount of metal from the stepped leg of the outrigger then got a loose 8 thou. and left it at that.

Possibly also some hand-fettling going on at the factory as the spare outrigger and primary inner case obtained from different sources don't actually fit together!

MKIII stator/rotor clearance strategies
 
Hopefully the OP can file/bend his way to nirvana, but again, given the position of the problem (and assuming it doesn't change position with rotation) I'd be inclined to eventually check the integrity of the chain/crank case interface.
A lot of f*cking about on the Mk3, I know, but not beyond the realms of credibility that a burr, piece of swarf/old gasket could be preventing it from sitting 100% as God intended......

But maybe not.......
I may have a check for good measure. But I was getting zero oil leakage from that seal while it was running so I’m disinclined to believe it’s misaligned.
 
Yes - They are an odd nut - 5/16" UNF with 7/16" AF - I have made my own in the past in a pinch by drilling out a 1/4" nut and tapping it 5/16".

I have also run across a couple of instances where somebody has managed to get regular 5/16" nuts on and tightened down - had a heck of a time getting them off!! Was close to turning down a 1/2" socket...
Yeah that’s not an area you can safely grind out the wax, as the stator wires are quite close to the surface. Learned that the hard way. The back side seems pretty safe to grind away though.
 
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The cNw kit pictured uses Allen head screws to secure the stator, on applications that use normal studs and nuts, I found it helpful to use smaller OD 12 point nuts as a ‘solution’ to the excess potting material.

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View attachment 95929
Nigel, The nuts with under sized heads you refer to are standard aviation items. See

MS 21042 Stop nuts aka Jet nuts

For the stator studs, MS 21042-5 would be the correct size. FYI, these are available with both under sized 6 & 12 point heads.
 
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However, also from the manual:

'Any misalignment of the stator mounting nuts... can only be corrected by very careful slight re-alignment of the studs'

!!!!

Assuming pattern parts are within OE tolerance, of course...
Malcolm, thanks for pointing out the above. I have now edited that inane advice out of Section 34, step 34 in my edit of the Mk III workshop manual.
 
Wish I could help on this subject. Both of my MK 111's fit the stator/ rotor clearances without any modifications.
 
Hi all,

I'm running into a problem that seems fairly common on Commandos. My 3 phase stator/rotor upgrade has lead to a clearance issue between the two when mounted. So far fettling has not effectively resolved the issue. I can get it down to ALMOST a smooth .08mm clearance at the tightest spot, but the difference in gap from one side to the other is huge, and I have burned through one stator hoping what I got to previously was close enough. So I really want to make sure I do it right this time. The zone where it's tightest seems somewhat endemic to commandos:

MKIII stator/rotor clearance strategies


I've done a lot of digging into suggestions for fixes, which have included:

the milk plastic shim method
bending the studs
hammering the stator
reaming bigger stud holes in the stator
grinding down the studs
removing material from the carrier on the right side where it closely follows the OD of the stator
milling down the OD of the rotor

...The list is long. But there doesn't seem to be a very clear consensus on best practices. My loosened assembly doesn't seem to have enough wiggle room for shims to work, and I don't understand how hammering or bending studs is going to move a part that is captured pretty tightly by the carrier plate (and the carrier plate in turn by the inner primary cover). Drilling bigger holes in the stator / grinding down the studs / modifying the carrier plate seem like they might potentially accommodate more movement, but what's the risk of stuff vibrating back into an interference condition? Milling down the rotor would be an interesting option if I had the setup to properly do that, but then the already large clearances on the left get even larger.

I'd appreciate any wisdom here because I'm a bit stumped as to the best fix for the problem.

Thanks,
Anthony
Just a though, but have you tried fitting the rotor without the woodruff key? I’m wondering if the key way may be too shallow causing it to bind and force the rotor over to one side. You may also want to try a test fit of the stator without washers under the nuts as they may restrict it’s range of adjustment.
 
I may have a check for good measure. But I was getting zero oil leakage from that seal while it was running so I’m disinclined to believe it’s misaligned.
You really need to check that the inner case is sitting flat to the crankcase, and that the support nut is not holding things off. Even if it means stripping the whole lot off. A lot of rotor misalignment problems are down to this. Just because it isn't leaking doesn't mean its sitting flat.
 
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I backed the support nuts off from both sides of the inner primary and waited to reset distances and tighten back up until after I tightened up the four studs around the crank. Would this not be sufficient?

Thanks,
Anthony


You really need to check that the inner case is sitting flat to the crankcase, and that the support nut is not holding things off. Even if it means stripping the whole lot off. A lot of rotor misalignment problems are down to this. Just because it isn't leaking doesn't mean its sitting flat.
 
Just a though, but have you tried fitting the rotor without the woodruff key? I’m wondering if the key way may be too shallow causing it to bind and force the rotor over to one side. You may also want to try a test fit of the stator without washers under the nuts as they may restrict it’s range of adjustment.
I didn't think of how those washers might affect adjustability, that's an excellent observation. I also have not tried removing the woodruff key to see how that affects things. I'll give it a shot.
 
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