May have to amend my view of Shorai...

commando6868 said:

I have been using an Odyssey battery in my MK111 going on 4 years now. I believe it is the same one used by CNW in the past/present. It seems to have plenty of cranking power, and it fits in "on it's side" , terminals facing out. It is a bit heavy, and you should use one of Odyssey's recommend charges. Anyone else have an experience with these?
Full disclosure: I had an Odyssey battery die in my R12000RT in just under 2 years, they replaced it N/C. After that I got the correct charger, the tech at Odyssey said a Battery Tender type charger does not charge their battery correctly and can lead to early failure.

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Yes, I use an Odyssey in my MK3. I have had to replace it about every 10 years.

I may go back to an Odyssey in my EFI bike. It's heavier but I never have to worry about it. Jim

Looking at an Odyssey Power sports battery with 8 amphours and 330 Phca (pulse hot cranking amps) and the Shorai LFX 24, also 8 amphours storage and comparable Phca, the Shorai is about 4 lbs, the Odyssey is 5.6lbs, not such a big weight difference.
Presumably the Odyssey is happy below 13.1 volts whereas the Shorai is not.

Glen

worntorn said:

Looking at an Odyssey Power sports battery with 8 amphours and 330 Phca (pulse hot cranking amps) and the Shorai LFX 24, also 8 amphours storage and comparable Phca, the Shorai is about 4 lbs, the Odyssey is 5.6lbs, not such a big weight difference.
Presumably the Odyssey is happy below 13.1 volts whereas the Shorai is not.

Glen

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I don't remember how much difference there was between the Odyssey pc310 that I used to run in my bike and the Antigravity that's in it now -but it was several pounds.

The Odyssey would start the bike even after leaving the security system on till it was down to 6 volts. [several weeks]
With the LiFePo battery it is dead in the water after about 4 days with the security system left on. Jim

The big weight difference happens if you replace a big lead acid or agm battery that has big capacity with a small li battery that has small ah. If the ah are kept similar, the weight differences aren't that great, nothing like the Mfr claims. The weight claims only hold true if you replace a 14 ah lead acid with a li battery rated 14 pb/eq, which actually has less than 5 ah at 14.2 volts. It has about 2 ah at 13 volts an updated Norton charging system might maintain.

But one could save almost as much weight by simply installing a little 5 ah agm or lead acid and for our standard systems, have more capacity available, since the agm and lead acid will get fully charged on our systems, whereas the Li will not.

So one can see why the li makers like the Pb/eq rating and don't want to leave it for amphours. The crazy high Pb/eq rating really inflates the weight savings number.
And we end up buying batteries that are really too small for the job. And the wrong voltage!
Glen

worntorn said:

The big weight difference happens if you replace a big lead acid or agm battery that has big capacity with a small li battery that has small ah. If the ah are kept similar, the weight differences aren't that great, nothing like the Mfr claims. The weight claims only hold true if you replace a 14 ah lead acid with a li battery rated 14 pb/eq, which actually has less than 5 ah at 14.2 volts. It has about 2 ah at 13 volts an updated Norton charging system might maintain.

But one could save almost as much weight by simply installing a little 5 ah agm or lead acid and for our standard systems, have more capacity available, since the agm and lead acid will get fully charged on our systems, whereas the Li will not.

So one can see why the li makers like the Pb/eq rating and don't want to leave it for amphours. The crazy high Pb/eq rating really inflates the weight savings number.
And we end up buying batteries that are really too small for the job. And the wrong voltage!
Glen

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+1

Big AGM and a 3 phase. Ride around with halogen headlight on and it cranks right up. I could lighten it 5 lb by laying off the beer for a while.

JimNH said:

worntorn said:

The big weight difference happens if you replace a big lead acid or agm battery that has big capacity with a small li battery that has small ah. If the ah are kept similar, the weight differences aren't that great, nothing like the Mfr claims. The weight claims only hold true if you replace a 14 ah lead acid with a li battery rated 14 pb/eq, which actually has less than 5 ah at 14.2 volts. It has about 2 ah at 13 volts an updated Norton charging system might maintain.

But one could save almost as much weight by simply installing a little 5 ah agm or lead acid and for our standard systems, have more capacity available, since the agm and lead acid will get fully charged on our systems, whereas the Li will not.

So one can see why the li makers like the Pb/eq rating and don't want to leave it for amphours. The crazy high Pb/eq rating really inflates the weight savings number.
And we end up buying batteries that are really too small for the job. And the wrong voltage!
Glen

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+1

Big AGM and a 3 phase. Ride around with halogen headlight on and it cranks right up. I could lighten it 5 lb by laying off the beer for a while.

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Jim, let's not make foolish and hasty choices!

A decent poo poo or pee pee or most a gallon of gas used seems more effort-cost effective in our obsolete charging systems. Depending on who ya believe its said to take 7.5 to 10 lb loss to give equivilent acceleration of one more hp developed. Leave boots off might be more effective to reach detectable mass loss. For about $90 I see small Li battery charges and racers know to keep a spare Li battery on hand so logical fella should have about $400 invested to always have full battery power available. Btw the voltage cut outs in hi end Li batteries is to prevent explosive disharge fires more than just saving battery to recharge. Once running we don't need a battery so have thought to hook up small flash light or watch batteries to get 14-16 v for starts. Most battery failures I've read on a few forums and from friends last year were the matt type breaking up inside within a season or less. Most of them thought just bad install or luck of bad battery batch so bought sencod set of AGMatt to have fail in similar time, but may not apply to other Commandos.

Frankly, I don't understand the emphasis on the weight difference for a street bike. The real advantages to me is the size/no maintenance/no leakage or spilleage/virtually no power loss in storage. I bought the Shorai because I saw it as a "better," more efficient, no-maintenance way of doing the job and, to be honest, because suppliers I have always respected in the Norton world recommended them. Heck, it IS a much better battery technology if coupled with the proper charging system. But, as noted, the manufacturers don't make it very clear what the limitations are that specifically apply to motorcycles - relatively anemic charging systems, especially on old bikes.

However, after more testing, I am now thinking that I must have left the key "on" overnight the other day when the batt wouldn't start the bike. It started/ran the bike fine after a 5-6 month storage/no charging but it was dead the next morning at 5.6 V. Maybe I accidentally rotated the key to the "park" position…though I would have thought I'd have seen the taillight… Hell, I don't know!

Maybe I have an intermittent elec thing. Tomorrow I'll go through all the connections…

This doesn't change the alternator output/Shorai issue but, as I have said before, the charging output is high enough that it should keep the batt well into the 80-90% charge range.

mike996 said:

Frankly, I don't understand the emphasis on the weight difference for a street bike. The real advantages to me is the size/no maintenance/no leakage or spilleage/virtually no power loss in storage. I bought the Shorai because I saw it as a "better," more efficient, no-maintenance way of doing the job and, to be honest, because suppliers I have always respected in the Norton world recommended them. Heck, it IS a much better battery technology if coupled with the proper charging system. But, as noted, the manufacturers don't make it very clear what the limitations are that specifically apply to motorcycles - relatively anemic charging systems, especially on old bikes.

However, after more testing, I am now thinking that I must have left the key "on" overnight the other day when the batt wouldn't start the bike. It started/ran the bike fine after a 5-6 month storage/no charging but it was dead the next morning at 5.6 V. Maybe I accidentally rotated the key to the "park" position…though I would have thought I'd have seen the taillight… Hell, I don't know!

Maybe I have an intermittent elec thing. Tomorrow I'll go through all the connections…

This doesn't change the alternator output/Shorai issue but, as I have said before, the charging output is high enough that it should keep the batt well into the 80-90% charge range.

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Mike, if you're not bothered about the weight saving aspect... But want all the good stuff you mention... I'd go with Odyssey...
I fitted the smallest Odyssey available to my Vincent. It has an Alton alternator, but even so, is not a big charger at low rpm. Nevertheless, the Odyssey has been on my Vin for nearly 10 years, and in that time I've only done less than 3,000 miles (long story), and the bike caught fire once, and I have NEVER put the battery on charge!

I've yet to find a battery that will hold a charge if the key is left on, lol... I'm all ears if anybody finds one though.

mike996 said:

However, after more testing, I am now thinking that I must have left the key "on" overnight the other day when the batt wouldn't start the bike. It started/ran the bike fine after a 5-6 month storage/no charging but it was dead the next morning at 5.6 V. Maybe I accidentally rotated the key to the "park" position…though I would have thought I'd have seen the taillight… Hell, I don't know!

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That just means the shutdown switch in the battery turned off. The measured voltage will drop instantly from around 12 to 5 or 6 volts. The internal voltage in the cells is still in the non -destructive range however.

To revive it without the Shorai charger you can connect it in parallel with another small 12 volt battery and put it on a small charger overnight. That will likely bring the cell voltage up into the operating range again. Jim

worntorn said:

The big weight difference happens if you replace a big lead acid or agm battery that has big capacity with a small li battery that has small ah. If the ah are kept similar, the weight differences aren't that great, nothing like the Mfr claims. The weight claims only hold true if you replace a 14 ah lead acid with a li battery rated 14 pb/eq, which actually has less than 5 ah at 14.2 volts. It has about 2 ah at 13 volts an updated Norton charging system might maintain.

But one could save almost as much weight by simply installing a little 5 ah agm or lead acid and for our standard systems, have more capacity available, since the agm and lead acid will get fully charged on our systems, whereas the Li will not.

So one can see why the li makers like the Pb/eq rating and don't want to leave it for amphours. The crazy high Pb/eq rating really inflates the weight savings number.
And we end up buying batteries that are really too small for the job. And the wrong voltage!
Glen

Click to expand...

Yes, The LiFePo battery in my bike is exactly what I don't need. High initial cranking power [no electric start] and a terrible slow discharge rating. [alarm system]
I suspect there will be an Odyssey back in it before the next big trip. One less thing to worry about. Jim

comnoz I remember you booting it so easy, so just how much batery do you need for all the extra draws on yours before starting becomes iffy. I'm wondering with Peel gadgets and gizmos might be similar. I've run w/o a battery, so to minimize battery mass just don't let rpms get below 1800 ish. Pilot must supply inigital power or smart enough to prepare for it thourgh. Peel whole past life used 1.2 ah shirt pocket gel cell which 3 ph sparx allowed. I think there are battery eliminators with light capastors that can hold alternator voltage spikes long enough to feed the coil hits. Blue can works this way for breakers. If the alternator was wired to throw its charge spikes about the time the coil needed it would be sort of magneto like even at slow idle to get off on 8 +lbs lighter travel and great reason to blip and blip at stops. On THE Grinder I'm a Princess & Peas able to detect the slight extra ease from loss of items like center stand, side stand, one half the exhaust system and most all of a battery which also added significant space under cover to stuff and nullify the sense in our hobby.

Shorai at 13.20V this AM - which is 70% charge (same as it was yesterday afternoon). Bike started with no difficulty. Really starting to look like something was drawing power overnight a couple of days ago. Since NOTHING on the bike draws power with the Ign switch off (checked and double checked as "0" draw with a DMM/Amp range), it appears to be operator error. But I'm going to go through all the electrics later today just to be sure all is OK.

hobot said:

comnoz I remember you booting it so easy, so just how much batery do you need for all the extra draws on yours before starting becomes iffy. I'm wondering with Peel gadgets and gizmos might be similar. I've run w/o a battery, so to minimize battery mass just don't let rpms get below 1800 ish. Pilot must supply inigital power or smart enough to prepare for it thourgh. Peel whole past life used 1.2 ah shirt pocket gel cell which 3 ph sparx allowed. I think there are battery eliminators with light capastors that can hold alternator voltage spikes long enough to feed the coil hits. Blue can works this way for breakers. If the alternator was wired to throw its charge spikes about the time the coil needed it would be sort of magneto like even at slow idle to get off on 8 +lbs lighter travel and great reason to blip and blip at stops. On THE Grinder I'm a Princess & Peas able to detect the slight extra ease from loss of items like center stand, side stand, one half the exhaust system and most all of a battery which also added significant space under cover to stuff and nullify the sense in our hobby.

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Almost nothing to get it started. Six alkaline AA batteries in series will start it if the lights are off. Jim

Another great thread on the best Norton forum on earth !

Well, here's where I am with all this…

I went through the electrics this morning and, while doing so, had the headlight on for various periods and also used the Alton to bump the engine quite a bit while doing a valve adjustment. The voltage of the batt got down to around 13V during all this. It has not been on a charger at all since I recharged it after it dropped to 5.6V several nights ago.

When I got the bike back ready to start, the Shorai spun the Alton just as rapidly as it ever had. IOW, it was perfectly "normal" as it has always been. As I was shaking my head over all this - how it could have lost the power overnight, my wife suggested, "You left something on." I STILL can't figure out what I might have done but I think that's probably right since there is absolutely ZERO parasitic drain with the key in the "off" position. I could not have left the ignition on because I couldn't have shut off the engine so perhaps I turned the key past "off" to the parking position and somehow didn't see the taillight. I suppose the other possibility is some sort of intermittent battery problem but I can't even imagine how such a thing could occur. I may go back into the electrical system and "cut" the circuit that activates the parking lights since I can't imagine any use for that anyway.

So…for now I've decided to stick with the Shorai. My wife's buying me a Shorai Charger for my birthday in a couple of weeks so I'll see how the Shorai acts in general and also occasionally charge it with the dedicated charger which supposedly can balance the cells and contribute to a longer life. I'll report anything notable.

Latest update…

The Shorai has worked perfectly since the issue that prompted this thread in the first place. IOW, with NO subsequent external charging, the batt has been spinning the heck out of the Alton starter as necessary with no issue whatsoever.

My wife bought me a Shorai charger a few weeks back but I have yet to connect it. The bike's Alton alternator/Podtronics has kept the battery at an acceptable charge level with no problem at all with the oem-type headlight on low beam at all times when cruising.

SO I've concluded, in a reversal of my previous reversal, that the Shorai 18 works fine for this application and that the discharge issue I experienced was, in fact, caused by me accidentally either leaving the ignition on or in the park position without noticing the taillight being on.

ONE thing worth noting re accidentally leaving the ignition "on…" If the Shorai is charged to a fairly high percent of its capacity, the voltage in the battery can be too high to trigger the red warning light when the ignition is turned on/left on. So there may not be a warning light to alert you that the ignition is on. Obviously, if you always shut off the bike by turning the key off/removing it, that won't matter. BUT if you do anything else - use the kill switch or turn off the fuel and let the bike run until it exhausts the fuel in the float bowls, you could forget about the key if that red light isn't on. However, I BELIEVE that what I did was turn the key past off to "park" and just didn't notice the taillight.