I think I might have ruined my Shorai batt..:(

In doing some switch wiring yesterday I accidentally left the ignition on all night and this morning the battery showed about 6 volts. I have read that they can accept up to 80% discharge without damage but this is far below the 100% discharged voltage of 9.2V. I have a trickle charger on it at the moment which is the only batt charger I have here so we'll see what happens but I fear it is toast.

One thing about the Shorai that I have noticed is that at even half-charge it is over 13V. SO...the red charge light on the headlamp shell that, with a regular battery, normally illuminates whenever the ignition is turned on, sometimes does not turn on. I ASSUME this is because if the battery voltage is high enough, the Podtronics (or the oem Lucas system) sees it as if the alternator is "charging" the battery, even when the engine is not running. On several occasions I have turned the ignition on with no red light, then turned on the headlight and the red light then illuminates.

Yesterday eve I had the ignition on to check some voltages but then forgot that I had it on - no red light - and quit for the night, leaving the ignition on.

i think you better dam well call the battery manufacturer and find out what to do or not do with the combustable to explosive Li chemistries. Li batteries generally need a computerized charger not to over charge or charge to fast or bad juju. Some Li batteries is discharged too low will not trigger their special chargers to kick in until voltage spikes hit battery to kick chemistry potentials up enough to take a charge. Li chemistry is more unstable that other batteries and can grow shorting whiskers inside that continue to short till a fire or the elements expand and contract so much it cracks connections so can't take a charge, just heats up till burns up. Likely your battery is not that dangerous as company would have to expect them to go flat now and then so I'd expect their design is be tolerate to pump back up but i'd sure check with maker for vital details.

Review what's known here and might also review the recent aircraft grounding d/t fires d/t charger current handling bad wiring fault that lead batteries could ignore.
http://electronics.stackexchange.com/qu ... through-it



r/r + Shorai battery= epic fail, SHORAI POSTS 3-24
Took the bike out for a run today. I actually measured voltage before I took off as the battery is new and I wanted to make sure everything was in order. I noted a charge rate of about 14.2 volts @4K rpm. Anyway, I was blasting down the road and everything was fine, till the bike cut out and died. I coasted to the edge of the road to find this:
http://www.superhawkforum.com/forums/ge ... ail-24934/

We're starting to see a trend with you. :mrgreen:

We're starting to see a trend with you. :mrgreen:

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Swoohersweetie, if you mean its sinking in hobot ain't been misleading anyone so far, guess what that implies about what's ya'll missing out on that makes me such a Black sheep outlaw to try to follow.

Peel gets a Li battey but is also extinguisher equipped as she's so hot to handle.



Btw I've got a Mrs Emma Peel photo in same native squat pose but sans coverings or arm in the way... one of the hottest sights in the Cosmos!

Mike
i managed to flatten the Shorai in my ES2, one alternator wire connection came loose while riding and eventually i coasted to a halt when all the smoke ran out. I didnt measure the remaining voltage.
The shorai charger has recovered my battery although the shorai info somewhere says there may be more need to trickle charge in this situation and that seems to be the case.

Maybe NOT!!!

Shorai says a normal charger is fine as long as it does not have an automatic de-sulfation mode. They specifically list "Battery Tender" brand chargers as suitable for the Shorai, which is what I have.

Happily, the battery seems to have recovered completely with a few hours on the Battery Tender. I won't know for sure until it sits all night - with the ignition OFF this time - and see what the voltage looks like in the morning. We have a 200 mile ride scheduled for 9:30 tomorrow. Interestingly, even with the battery showing something like 6V, it still managed to turn the Alton starter/engine until the piston was near the top of the compression stroke but it couldn't push it through. I guess that says something favorable about either the Shorai Batt or the Alton starter motor...or maybe both.

Hi, anyone had ideas about using some MOSFET regulator/rectifier; for those new batteries (Shorai or Ballistic) , they seem to be more reliable than the other system, I do not speak off the dinosaur Zener and Lucas three plates............!

My Lucas rectifier/Zener and the Podtronics which I installed recently both do OK as far as charging the Shorai - they both produced exactly the same voltage/RPM. But they would not provide the maximum charge voltage that the Shorai would like to see for a 100% charge. The max charge they will allow is about 90% which probably doesn't matter much in the real world. So I agree it would be nice to have a device that could be adjusted to suit charging for both flooded batts and the Li Fe batteries. And hopefully that adjustment would also be able to send the appropriate "discharging" signal to the warning light.

I have determined this morning that on my bike if the battery has more than around 13.2V - which is approx an 80% charge on the battery, turning the ignition on will not cause the warning light to illuminate unless you also turn on the headlight.

I discharged the AGM in my Miata over a year ago, to flat, 0V for about a week. I charged it, maybe a week, slow charger, maybe 2A and so far it seems OK. I'm sure it wasn't good for the battery though. You may be lucky. YMMV.

Dave
69S

I also managed to flatten my Shorai to about 6volt but with careful recharging it recovered OK. This may have shortened its life but I guess I will never really know!

" I won't know for sure until it sits all night - with the ignition OFF this time - and see what the voltage looks like in the morning"

Today batt voltage was 13.38 - same voltage that it was yesterday afternoon - after sitting through the night and the starter spins just as quickly as before so my conclusion is that flattening the battery didn't have any ill affect at all. Though, as others have said, perhaps it will affect the long-term battery life but at the moment it acts as if nothing happened.

Let it sit for a day after charging, no load and see what voltage it's at. That supposedly eliminates the surface charge, if those batteries have that.

Dave
69S

I did some more elec fiddling yesterday though the bike was never started but I did have the ignition on/off several times. I did not have the charger connected. When I quit fooling with it yesterday afternoon, batt voltage was 13.02. This morning, the battery voltage was still 13.02. This was with the battery connected normally, fuse in place. So I have concluded that the battery getting down in the 6V range didn't hurt it at all.

In further reading re these batteries, I'm thinking that when they say it's a problem bring them back from a total discharge, they mean exactly that - zero voltage. I think that as long as there is some voltage, 'normal' recharging works fine. I ASSUME that had I, for example, left the ignition on for another day, it would have ended up at zero at some point and then it might have been an issue.

FWIW, a battery tender will not fully charge the battery. 13.28V was the highest it ever charged the battery which is approx an 80% charge. The Alternator/reg on the bike will run it up to 14 which, per Shorai, is around 90-95% charge. A 100% charge is 14.34. I suspect that no charging system designed for flooded batts will fully charge a Shorai though I can't imagine there is any operational difference between the battery capacity at a 95% charge vs a 100% charge.

I left my ignition switch on once, but it only corroded the switch terminal so there was very high resistance. It was 40 years old so it probably needed cleaning anyhow. Good thing I didn't burn up one of the coils. Shouldn't matter now with EI.

DogT said:

Shouldn't matter now with EI.

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I left my key on for a week or so once with no effect. Without all those antiquated electronics ( zener, reg/rec, assimilator, capacitor, condenser, Ballast Resistor, and what not) the system is efficient, cleaner and fault resistant.

A reliable Norton usually starts and ends with the electrical system.

Been reading up on Shorai batteries. Size and weight is amazing to a comparable lead acid. Found this on youtube questioning performance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySNbSZTgplA

÷ pb/eq rating by 3 to get actual amphours stored, then compare. For example Lfx18 is 6 amphours, so compare, size, weight, longevity and price of a lfx18 to a lead acid Yuasa type 6ah.

Glen

÷ pb/eq rating by 3 to get actual amphours stored, then compare. For example Lfx18 is 6 amphours, so compare, size, weight, longevity and price of a lfx18 to a lead acid Yuasa type 6ah.

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True, but not the whole story. The real point of the Li-ion battery is its impressive cranking power against its size and weight. To quote Shorai "the LFX18 12V series have 6Ah cells internally. But the cells are capable of 80% discharge without damage and while retaining more cranking ability. As such, the USABLE capacity(or "reserve capacity") of an LFX18 12V battery is on or very near par with 18AHr-rated lead acid batteries, while providing superior cranking performance and a vast reduction in weight."

So if you have an e-start bike and want/need to save space and/or weight, this is a good way to go

David

pdl999 said:

÷ pb/eq rating by 3 to get actual amphours stored, then compare. For example Lfx18 is 6 amphours, so compare, size, weight, longevity and price of a lfx18 to a lead acid Yuasa type 6ah.

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True, but not the whole story. The real point of the Li-ion battery is its impressive cranking power against its size and weight. To quote Shorai "the LFX18 12V series have 6Ah cells internally. But the cells are capable of 80% discharge without damage and while retaining more cranking ability. As such, the USABLE capacity(or "reserve capacity") of an LFX18 12V battery is on or very near par with 18AHr-rated lead acid batteries, while providing superior cranking performance and a vast reduction in weight."

So if you have an e-start bike and want/need to save space and/or weight, this is a good way to go

David

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Assuming your charging system is adequate.

If you are only concerned with starting power, then the pb/eq number has meaning. If you need a certain amount of amphours storage in order to keep the bike running while discharging (running with lights on, stop and start traffic), then, the pb/eq number should be divided by three to accurately reflect Li battery true capacity.

And, as Dave points out, if your charging system is not strong enough, then Li is not recommended. This is from the Manufacturer's own info.
If your existing setup with a good lead acid or other battery is not always kept above 12.86 volts, then Shorai says do not use their battery.
Lead acid is quite happy below 12.86 volts. 11.5 volts is considered discharged for lead acid.

One other point on the impressive starting power of the Li batteries- a friend uses a Shorai LFX 18 to run the Grosset electric starter on his Egli-Vincent. It turns the bike over quite nicely, very much like an 18amphour battery ought to.He runs the starter in no more than five second blasts. If the bike does not start by the second attempt, he needs jumper cables and assistance. So for sustained heavy usage, the battery turns back into a 6ah size.

So really, it is the pb/eq rating that tells part of the story, the part that gets buyers all excited about perceived fantastic size/weight savings.

Glen