May have to amend my view of Shorai...

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I have been watching this thread and I thought I would add my experience with this same thing.


My charging system tested good. I even bought a 100 ohm resister to test it with a load.

I replaced my Shorai battery and still had the same problem.

Out of desperation ( since I had replaced everything else ) I replaced my podtronic unit and it solved all my problems. My pod unit worked or appeared to work most of the time.

It is not an on or off type of deal.

I actually went back to first battery and still use it today. 3 years on the battery now.

I am not saying that is your problem. I just wanted to add my experience.
 
OK..A correction of my last post. Those voltages were with the LUCAS 180W alternator which I tested in 2011, a year or more prior to the Alton Install.

I just checked the voltages for the Alton 150W alternator. The maximum voltage that the alternator will achieve through the podtronics regulator is 13.8. Here are the actual figures with headlight off/on on my bike:

900 RPM - 13.05/12.48
2000 13.55/13.15
3000 13.78/13.45
4000 13.80/13.55

A Shorai is fully charged at 14.3 so the Alton/podtronics system can never fully charge the Shorai batt under any circumstances.

But that's not all THAT bad; here are some figures for Shorai charge level/voltage:

14.3 - full
13.3 - 90%
13.27 - 80%
13.16 - 70%
13.116 - 50%

Note that there is a huge difference in V between a 100% and 90% charge per Shorai but relatively little between lowering charge levels.. In reality, it is hard to imagine that there is any real operational difference between 90 and 100% (though I don't know that for sure). SO…running with a standard headlight on, it would appear that if you are cruising along at 3k RPM or higher, you are maintaining the battery at 90%. With the HL off, it would only take around 1700 RPM.

My little batt tender will not deliver more than 13.28v to the shorai so the best it can do is to charge the batt to close to 80%.
 
Mike,

Using a Lucas 3 Phase and Podtronics, lights off I measured;
14.1 volts @ 2000 rpm
14.4 volts @ 3000 rpm and I believe it stays flat from this point

lights on:
13.0 v @ 2000 rpm
13.48 @ 3000 rpm and I believe this will go up higher w/ rpm's

Wish I could give you an amp number but I have never tested for that.

On my MKIII
a Yuasa YB14 battery would last about 2.5-3 yrs
I just installed a Odessey PC625 AGM and will see how that does. The ground is cover with road salt and it't 16 degrees so it will be a while.

Pete
 
There are lots of good reports on Odyssey batteries. Their lifespan really does seem to live up to their advertising.

Mike, my comments re actual ah of Li batteries were made using Shorai's site info but with a standard Lucas charging system in mind.
My Commando is a MK3 with it's original rm 23 180 watt single phase. It was Sunny and above freezing yesterday so a friend and I rode out to Harrison Hot Springs, back roads all the way except thru some town traffic in Chilliwack. I had the heated vest and H4 55/65 headlight on for the entire 120 miles. The charging system did it's job, everything worked and I stayed warm . Speeds were pretty low as we were on the lookout for frost on the road.
Resting Voltage measured this morning is 12.74, excellent for a lead acid battery (14ahyuasa) after such usage. With an Li battery in there, I would be in trouble,in fact while going slowly thru Chilliwack I suspect I would have been making an AAA call for emergency help.
With the big lead acid in there the system keeps working even while the voltage drops down a bit, then once back on the faster roads the battery charges up a bit.
Clearly your Alton comes closer to producing the output needed for a lithium battery. Modern bikes with 400 watt alternators do it easily.

Glen
 
Thanks Glen,

Along with my own, your experience would tend to make me believe that a conventional flooded Lead/Acid batt is the best choice for one of these bikes, regardless of the alternator/regulator choice.

I'm pondering switching to a L/A battery. It wouldn't be much of a consideration except for the fact that my Shorai batt/Alton starter relay co-exist so nicely on the battery tray. But I guess it wouldn't be THAT big a deal to put a conventional batt in place and relocate the relay… ;)
 
I haven't tested this yet, but it should work... the following circuit is for NEGATIVE GROUND SYSTEMS

May have to amend my view of Shorai...


Each rectifier added raises the output voltage of the regulator by 0.7 volts. I have not made any measurements, but I think the current through the rectifier is not very high so a 1 amp rectifier should be enough. Next week I will get a regulator and take measurements.

If a rectifier/regulator gives out 14.7 volts maximum, adding one rectifier will raise the maximum output voltage to 15.4 volts, adding a second rectifier in series with the first will take the maximum to 16.1 volts. For batteries like the Shorai, one rectifier may be enough to let it charge correctly while riding.

Jean
 
commando6868 said:
comnoz said:
ashman said:
Don't the Alton kit come with a higher working altenator???
Click to expand...

Unfortunately not.
Click to expand...
Is the Alton alternator single or three phase? Is Alton going to provide a higher output at lower RPM alternator?

MF
Click to expand...

It is single phase. Around 150 watts -but due to it's larger diameter it does produce it's output at a little lower RPM than a Lucas.

I talked to Alton about a 3 phase alternator and he said he would look into it. I suspect he is challenged by the limited space available. Jim
 
After what happened with the 3 phase Altons for Vincents, he may not want to revisit 3 phase for awhile. These units did not work properly once warm and Paul Hamon ended up replacing all of them. Then he tried a sped up (internal transmission) single phase. That worked for awhile until the gears let go, so Paul replaced many of those units with the current single phase direct drive unit, very similar to the starting point but with bigger magnets. It seems to be a very good little unit.
Through it all, Paul did the right thing by replacing failed units for the customers, but it must have been very costly.
I admire his willingness to try new designs to make our old bikes work better. I also admire the fact that he makes himself accountable when things don't work out as planned.

Glen
 
YES…one thing that I would also like to make VERY clear…Alton does not/did not recommend a Shorai battery for the application. That was totally based on my own "initiative," based on other, totally separate inputs/info re motorcycle batts.

As I said earlier, I haven't had bike batteries in general last more than a couple of years so, in that regard, despite whether the Shorai is a proper match for an old Norton/Alton starter, it didn't do any worse then my last flooded batts in the Norton. But it cost 3x as much! :(

I had to replace the batts in my Ducati's almost every year...
 
Interesting test here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l6VJ_LMfpk

What it makes me believe is that IF a Shorai is fully charged properly, it has as much cranking power as a larger (amp hour) Lead/acid battery. BUT that's the rub…charging it properly.

I have seem other UTube tests of Shorais where the tester demonstrates it fails sooner than a L/A BUT none of those cases - at least that I've seen - show the Shorai charged with the Shorai charger. So it seems clear that a Shorai IS as powerful as claimed WHEN properly charged/maintained.

OTOH - it's reasonable to say that since the battery is supposed to work in a Mcycle, if an Mcycle system can't correctly charge it, it's not a good choice for a motorcycle.
 
Mike, there are a couple of different ways to measure the amount of power stored in a battery.
The old standard way that lead acid battery manufacturers often use is amphours. If a battery has 18 amphours capacity,then a fully charged 12 volt battery can deliver 18 amps of current for 1 hour or one amp for 18 hours before being fully discharged (11.5 volts for a 12 volt lead acid)
Li battery manufacturers found that their batteries could produce about three times the cranking power for a given amphour size than lead acid batteries can because of the low internal resistance of the Li batteries. This comes in handy for running a starter. It doesn't help at all with a slow discharge like we sometimes encounter with an old bike running in traffic at night.
Then it is down to how many true amphours of storage are available before voltage drops below what is required for the ignition.
So for that kind of small but longterm load, the fully charged 14.2 volt Lfx 18 is about equivalent to a 6 amphour lead acid.
For the starter load, at least on initial roll over, the fully charged LFX 18 can flow as much power (briefly) as an 18 amphour lead acid battery. That is where the Li battery designation " Pb/eq" comes from, it means "leadacid equivalent", however it only refers to this narrow description of it's ability to turn a starter and only on the initial try.

Glen
 
Does the high output 3 phase alternator charge these sufficiently?

I've got one that has been good so far (touch wood).

But I've not got a starter or indicators etc. and I use an LED tail light.
 
Fast Eddie,
I posted my numbers a little ways up. They do not even seem to be high enough with headlight turned on. I am wondering if they are good enough for my AGM.
I'll be switching to LED tail, pilot and instruments soon and see what that does. Headlight might be in the future. Headlight shell is jammed with wires and relays, I'm worried about the heat, and room for the fan in there.

Pete
 
worntorn said:
Mike, there are a couple of different ways to measure the amount of power stored in a battery.
The old standard way that lead acid battery manufacturers often use is amphours. If a battery has 18 amphours capacity,then a fully charged 12 volt battery can deliver 18 amps of current for 1 hour or one amp for 18 hours before being fully discharged (11.5 amps for a 12 volt lead acid)
Li battery manufacturers found that their batteries could produce about three times the cranking power for a given amphour size than lead acid batteries can because of the low internal resistance of the Li batteries. This comes in handy for running a starter. It doesn't help at all with a slow discharge like we sometimes encounter with an old bike running in traffic at night.
Then it is down to how many true amphours of storage are available before voltage drops below what is required for the ignition.
So for that kind of small but longterm load, the fully charged 14.2 volt Lfx 18 is about equivalent to a 6 amphour lead acid.
For the starter load, at least on initial roll over, the fully charged LFX 18 can flow as much power (briefly) as an 18 amphour lead acid battery. That is where the Li battery designation " Pb/eq" comes from, it means "leadacid equivalent", however it only refers to this narrow description of it's ability to turn a starter and only on the initial try.

Glen
Click to expand...

Glen,

Thanks. I guess I was just looking at the comparison re starting, where the Shorai spun the motor as long as the L/A battery could. Actually, toward the end, it spun faster initially than the L/A. But the slow discharge thing that you mention is a good point that I think is the heart of the matter. It seems to me that IF the charging system can properly charge a Shorai, you're golden. If not, then eventually, as Jim pointed out, it doesn't matter how many of them you put in parallel, they will eventually drop below useable power.

The things I am considering right now is whether to buy the Shorai charger and periodically use it to ensure the batt is OK - after all, the batt went for 2+ years with no problem at all; replace it with a L/A (and move my Alton relay to a different location :(; Look into the LED headlight/tailight again. HOWEVER, the fact remains that the Alton alternator/Podtronics will not fully charge the Shorai, even if no other components are operating because the voltage is too low. It WILL charge it to 90% which, it seems to me, is adequate. I want to reiterate that the issue I had, had never occurred until I started running with the oem headlight on...
 
From Ballistic Parts' website:

EVO batteries are more sensitive to variations in charging system outputs than lead-acid batteries with a higher amp/hour values. Vintage bikes from the late 60’s to the early 80’s sometimes have charging systems that are not as consistent as modern charging systems. These primitive charging systems sometimes have voltage outputs that exceed or are below the voltage limits of an EVO battery. We strongly recommend using the EVO Tester to check compatibility before using any lithium battery in a vintage bike. EVO batteries are NOT compatible with positive ground systems.
 
It sounds like the Ballistic and Shorai are the same type of battery. But IMO, the ballistic info seems better/more accurate than the Shorai as far as things to be aware of. Ballistic states:

"The Ballistic EVO batteries are designed to be used as starter batteries. EVO batteries typically have much higher cranking amps than the stock battery, but less amp/hours. What this means is that if you have a lot of additional electrical accessories that draw from the battery when the vehicle is not running, an EVO battery will discharge quicker than the OEM lead-acid battery."

(Of course, an insufficient charging system will result in the same thing…but slower.)

The fact that the batt will discharge quicker and has less amp hours for non-starting purposes, is a very important item that Ballistic identifies but Shorai does not. Although other individuals have pointed it out. To be honest, I have become quite disappointed in Shorai over the last few days - NOT so much because of the battery itself, but because I believe their marketing is misleading.

People (like me) are buying/bought the batteries without an initial understanding of the considerations involved. Shorai acts as if their equivalent A/H is basically the same thing as a L/A batt. Ballisitic explains the difference. I LIKE them better! :)
 
The LiFePo battery builder that I liked best was Antigravity.

He knew his stuff and told you without trying to pump you full of crap or giving you the hard sell. That is what is in my bike. Like all LIFePo batteries, it is very short of reserve capacity even with my big alternator.

None of the motorcycle battery builders supply there own cells. They are purchased from one of the couple dozen cell manufacturers in the world and the builder packages them in their own box, sometimes with their own electronics control package.

The Shorai battery has one of the most complex control packages. It makes the battery pretty safe and saves the cells from overcharge, discharge or imbalance. It is also the slowest to recover from an accidental discharge. Jim
 
I have been using an Odyssey battery in my MK111 going on 4 years now. I believe it is the same one used by CNW in the past/present. It seems to have plenty of cranking power, and it fits in "on it's side" , terminals facing out. It is a bit heavy, and you should use one of Odyssey's recommend charges. Anyone else have an experience with these?
Full disclosure: I had an Odyssey battery die in my R12000RT in just under 2 years, they replaced it N/C. After that I got the correct charger, the tech at Odyssey said a Battery Tender type charger does not charge their battery correctly and can lead to early failure.
 
mike996 said:
The fact that the batt will discharge quicker and has less amp hours for non-starting purposes, is a very important item that Ballistic identifies but Shorai does not. Although other individuals have pointed it out. To be honest, I have become quite disappointed in Shorai over the last few days - NOT so much because of the battery itself, but because I believe their marketing is misleading.

People (like me) are buying/bought the batteries without an initial understanding of the considerations involved. Shorai acts as if their equivalent A/H is basically the same thing as a L/A batt. Ballisitic explains the difference. I LIKE them better! :)
Click to expand...


Ballistic has added all of this information to their site since I purchased batteries from them three years ago. In those days the description of their batteries made it seem like there was no reason to ever buy lead acid again. I guess that was early days and they were blinded by their own hype, however now that certain
problems have arisen, at least they are acknowledging them.

As you say, Shorai doesn't give such clear warnings and continues to advertise tremendous weight advantages which are pretty dubious when comparing apples to apples Li to Lead acid equal amphours. Shorai does mention that their batteries are not compatible with vehicles having charging systems which produce less than 13 volts at idle . To my knowledge, none of the readily available charging systems for our bikes will produce 13 volts at idle with headlight and ignition loads.



Glen


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