Light show...or not

Stephen_Spencer said:
DOH - thought that did’nt make sense! I readily accept Access Norton’s ‘dork of the month’ award for that one:rolleyes:! The procedure shows an image of the cable end and boot in plan view and then what appears to be in side elevation! Inviting the technically challenged to test the plug - that’s my excuse and I’m sticking to it!!

Access is very limited to the rear of the unit, even with the rear airbox bladder/oil catcher moved aside - is it acceptable to dismount the rec/reg or does it need to remain in place? I will test again today.

The below ebay item appears to be an exact match as you say. At A$25 I’m going to order it anyway as a spare or at least to physically eliminate it from the fault finding.

Appreciate your feedback guys.

View attachment 79244
View attachment 79245
Click to expand...
Yes , unplug it and take it off the bike so you can work on it. Just buy a new one too !
 
Hey Tony, Rec /Reg definitely toast - new one due in a week or so. Seem to remember the requirement for a specific grease type to be applied to the underside of the unit? I may well have imagined this though as ownership is driving me slowly mad!

Appreciate being led by the nose with this fault (as usual).

Steve
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Hey Tony, Rec /Reg definitely toast - new one due in a week or so. Seem to remember the requirement for a specific grease type to be applied to the underside of the unit? I may well have imagined this though as ownership is driving me slowly mad!

Appreciate being led by the nose with this fault (as usual).

Steve
Click to expand...
Coat the aluminum plate on the bottom of the rec/reg with heat transfer paste before mounting . You can find this on line , but don't buy the cheap stuff its too runny . I'll see if I can find a link to give an idea. Look for something like this :

 
TonyA said:
Coat the aluminum plate on the bottom of the rec/reg with heat transfer paste before mounting . You can find this on line , but don't buy the cheap stuff its too runny . I'll see if I can find a link to give an idea. Look for something like this :

Click to expand...
Thanks Tony, as ever. I will source a good quality heat transfer paste. Interestingly, the under side of the original Rec/Reg was bone dry on removal. Maybe reduced heat transfer played some part in failure of the component. Who knows.
 
This should be suitable. Available in Aus. With a bit of luck I’ll be back on the road next week:D!
Light show...or not
 

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  • Light show...or not
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Unfortunately my charging system woes are yet to be resolved. I replaced the rec/reg as discussed however in the interim took a closer look at its testing.
A7EC69D9-ABDE-4318-879E-707AA5BAC868.png
This part of the testing makes little sense to me. I believe it is referencing the checking of the plug and cable and not the rec/Reg unit itself. The only way I can find to test the unit is to check the diodes using the ‘diode’ function on the multimeter which measures voltage of course, checking the diodes in both direction as Tony mentions above. As such the resistance values shown make no sense in relation to the rec/reg unit. The new rec/reg provides the same readings in the diode check as the original - guess I’ve got a spare at least. The readings I get taken at the rec/reg plug bear no resemblance to those shown above - not sure if this means the plug/wiring is suspect.

All other charging system checks are in spec including charging voltage at idle of 18v and 65v at 4000 rpm. Suspecting the battery (Shorai Lithium) under load is the problem. When fully charged using my smart charger all is good, with voltage easily climbing to 14.2-14.4v whilst running the bike stationary. As voltage drops erroneous voltage reading occur, voltage does not climb back up to 14+v, sometimes mid 13v, sometimes high 12v.

Not game to take her for another ride as the last one led to a trip home via breakdown truck. At 11 months old I am looking to warranty the Shorai battery - waiting direction from the supplier. Interestingly Battery world, one of Aus largest battery retailers, will not touch Lithium batteries for motorcycles - too many difficulties; susceptible to overcharging, heat and incorrect charging algorithms (?). It’s why they die early apparently!

Rather have my bike working but quite enjoying the fettling!:)
 
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Hello Again , When you ohm check back into the rec/reg plug , you are checking the coils of the stator assuming you have that other end plugged in. The ohm check test is very basic and the SCR's inside the rec/reg would have to be shorted or open to see a big change with the ohm check. But what I want to explain to you is the SCR's inside the rec/reg must trigger properly to regulate your charging system. You will not see this with the ohm test , but rather you should replace it (rec/reg) . You are checking the ohms on the rec/reg itself when you test it , meaning unplug it and put the probes directly on the rec/reg terminals. When you ohm check the plug you are testing the wires coming from , and the stator coils. The large thicker wires are the ground and the 12v system power to battery etc..
 
Thanks Tony, I’m learning a lot about the charging system on this bike but the manual still confuses.

The stator coil resistance is within specification (1.0 ohm) when measured from any 2 of the 3 output wires of the rec/reg connector (plug) or direct from the Alternator plug (Ref 16.7.3).

Watched multiple videos on checking the rec/reg on a motorcycle - they all use the same method (as you describe earlier with forward and reverse bias). They are using the diode mode on the multimeter to check the diodes of the rec/reg. As you know this introduces a small DC current from the tester and is of course measured in volts. Both my new and old rec/regs pass this test and the new one is fitted to the bike.

C3AA22E1-9BA5-4A32-9BD1-0FCAE5E69D06.jpeg


I get no resistance readings at all from either (new or old) rec/reg when measured at the plug, or directly from the rec/reg terminals. Certainly not those detailed in para 16.7.4 below. This is a mystery to me.

F73EA3B8-3D35-4EEA-9B89-4F6543DC7AB6.jpeg


I rechecked 16.7.2 ‘rec/reg output voltage’ again and in true 961 fashion got slightly different results.

Prior to startup bike showed 13.3v at the battery (clock voltmeter reads .5v below actual). Bike started first time as it has throughout the fault finding process. Bike warmed up and voltage increased slowly until it reached 14.5v. The stator is producing voltage within spec and the rec/reg is regulating voltage to within 14-15v. Leaving the bike to idle longer than I normally would, idle voltage reached 14.9-15v. As such, the charging system is said to be working normally IAW the manual. I have not got the same result each time I have tried this test.

Go figure! So why would the battery (or charging system) fail so quickly on the last ride - voltage plummeting (incrementally) to 7.5v within a few km, until the engine cut out? I am thinking battery still. Bike behaves normally when battery has just been fully charged. I’m wondering whether if voltage drops below a certain level whilst riding (because it is failing) it goes too low for the bikes changing system to recover.

Waiting for the Shorai dealer to action (or not) warranty. Failing that I will buy another Shorai (and their charger). With 19Ah, 285 CCA, this battery has plenty of oomph when in good condition. I have reached the (very) end of my (very) limited knowledge in this area so any further feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Norton (still) rocks! :)
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Thanks Tony, I’m learning a lot about the charging system on this bike but the manual still confuses.

The stator coil resistance is within specification (1.0 ohm) when measured from any 2 of the 3 output wires of the rec/reg connector (plug) or direct from the Alternator plug (Ref 16.7.3).

Watched multiple videos on checking the rec/reg on a motorcycle - they all use the same method (as you describe earlier with forward and reverse bias). They are using the diode mode on the multimeter to check the diodes of the rec/reg. As you know this introduces a small DC current from the tester and is of course measured in volts. Both my new and old rec/regs pass this test and the new one is fitted to the bike.

View attachment 79623

I get no resistance readings at all from either (new or old) rec/reg when measured at the plug, or directly from the rec/reg terminals. Certainly not those detailed in para 16.7.4 below. This is a mystery to me.

View attachment 79626

I rechecked 16.7.2 ‘rec/reg output voltage’ again and in true 961 fashion got slightly different results.

Prior to startup bike showed 13.3v at the battery (clock voltmeter reads .5v below actual). Bike started first time as it has throughout the fault finding process. Bike warmed up and voltage increased slowly until it reached 14.5v. The stator is producing voltage within spec and the rec/reg is regulating voltage to within 14-15v. Leaving the bike to idle longer than I normally would, idle voltage reached 14.9-15v. As such, the charging system is said to be working normally IAW the manual. I have not got the same result each time I have tried this test.

Go figure! So why would the battery (or charging system) fail so quickly on the last ride - voltage plummeting (incrementally) to 7.5v within a few km, until the engine cut out? I am thinking battery still. Bike behaves normally when battery has just been fully charged. I’m wondering whether if voltage drops below a certain level whilst riding (because it is failing) it goes too low for the bikes changing system to recover.

Waiting for the Shorai dealer to action (or not) warranty. Failing that I will buy another Shorai (and their charger). With 19Ah, 285 CCA, this battery has plenty of oomph when in good condition. I have reached the (very) end of my (very) limited knowledge in this area so any further feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Norton (still) rocks! :)
Click to expand...
Check out the Antigravity website..
Do all things Lithium,batteries,chargers and monitors.
Even Lithium has its grades,
A.B.C.D.
Some cheaper Lithium batteries will use the lower grade.
China perhaps
Before you buy ask what grade they use.
This is something that I am looking at.
 
MAK said:
Check out the Antigravity website..
Do all things Lithium,batteries,chargers and monitors.
Even Lithium has its grades,
A.B.C.D.
Some cheaper Lithium batteries will use the lower grade.
China perhaps
Before you buy ask what grade they use.
This is something that I am looking at.
Click to expand...
F9110410-4D0D-413F-B590-D6528065A26F.jpeg

Post inserted as a pic - some sort of security error!
 
Well, that’s blown my theory out of the water! The Shorai battery has been through testing and I received a lengthy, detailed and rather complex call from a technician today. Loooong story short, the battery is all good despite a slight dip in capacity it is healthy - freakishly healthy as it is producing 330 CCA! It always did start well.

So, I am officially confused! Charging system good (I think), battery good, then why did my bike dump its electrical load and leave me stranded at the side of the road? From roughly 13v+ down to 7.5v in a couple of Km?:oops:

Purchased the Shorai charger. Gonna refit the battery, charge it and go for another ride. I’ll let you know if it ends like this:

Light show...or not
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Well, that’s blown my theory out of the water! The Shorai battery has been through testing and I received a lengthy, detailed and rather complex call from a technician today. Loooong story short, the battery is all good despite a slight dip in capacity it is healthy - freakishly healthy as it is producing 330 CCA! It always did start well.

So, I am officially confused! Charging system good (I think), battery good, then why did my bike dump its electrical load and leave me stranded at the side of the road? From roughly 13v+ down to 7.5v in a couple of Km?:oops:

Purchased the Shorai charger. Gonna refit the battery, charge it and go for another ride. I’ll let you know if it ends like this:

View attachment 79770
Click to expand...
Check your grounds . Engine and frame , make sure star washer is installed and biting into frame .
 
Will do Tony, can’t locate the grounds on the wiring diagram (16.2.1) - they don’t seem to be included. I’ll have a good look when I remove the tank again to refit battery (when I receive it back). From negative terminal to frame? Engine to frame? Others? Electrickery - not my favourite subject!
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Will do Tony, can’t locate the grounds on the wiring diagram (16.2.1) - they don’t seem to be included. I’ll have a good look when I remove the tank again to refit battery (when I receive it back). From negative terminal to frame? Engine to frame? Others? Electrickery - not my favourite subject!
Click to expand...
There are two large ground wires . one is at the rear of the cylinder barrel (engine ground) and the other is on the frame under the seat holding air box .
 
With all this troublesome talk about lithium batteries/chargers/charging sytems and then
poor life of iridium plugs, I think I will stick with
an AGM battery and standard plugs. I had enough
trouble getting the bike to run well. The factory mapping
was a joke the bike was hard starting and ran like a bag
of hammers. I sent out my ECU for unlocking and remapping.
961 runs well now. I can proud of it instead of feeling like
I got ripped off. Hope it stays that way.
 
I’m going to stick with the lithium battery for now and track down my charging fault, if one exists! No time currently with dreaded renovations at hand.

The Shorai charger is the way to go with the Shorai lithium battery I think, but I have to say it‘s build quality is average at best; nowhere near as well built or robust as the NOCO charger. The BMS cable that enters the battery is not well retained in position, noting that it needs to stay in position under the tank, vibration permitting. Have’nt fitted it yet but suspect that the plastic cable end cover will need to be removed so the cable can be routed successfully. Maybe off the mark here but I’ll see when it’s fitted.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
I’m going to stick with the lithium battery for now and track down my charging fault, if one exists! No time currently with dreaded renovations at hand.

The Shorai charger is the way to go with the Shorai lithium battery I think, but I have to say it‘s build quality is average at best; nowhere near as well built or robust as the NOCO charger. The BMS cable that enters the battery is not well retained in position, noting that it needs to stay in position under the tank, vibration permitting. Have’nt fitted it yet but suspect that the plastic cable end cover will need to be removed so the cable can be routed successfully. Maybe off the mark here but I’ll see when it’s fitted.
Click to expand...
The multi-pin connector on my charger vibrates loose randomly. At the moment the charger will 'store' but not 'charge', not an issue as I can plug in my regular Optimate to the connector under the seat to take battery to full charge prior to starting. I need to take the tank off and give my multi-pin a wiggle in it's socket in the battery to get the 'charge' function back.

As for cable routing, I took mine forward along the oil tank, between the fork yokes, and the socket sits nicely to the side of the headlight behind the cowl and protected from the elements... I then just hook the charger on front brake lever.
 
Thanks Mx, I’ll have a look at doing the same - had’nt thought about taking the charging lead forward. I suppose the battery could also be reversed to get the cable more directly routed. I’ll have a look when I mount it.

The charger does’nt behave as advertised also. It is supposed to cut off/shut down if ‘store’ or ‘charge’ is not selected within 30 sec of it being initiated. It does not. It is also supposed to beep/shut down when the battery reaches full charge (14.4v). It does not - the ’charge’ light stays on and I assume continues the charge cycle. My battery charges to 14.2v. Maybe that’s why it does’nt cut off. Who knows.
 
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So finally found time to fit the battery and do a little more fault diagnosis. Fitted the battery and routed the Shorai battery cable. 14.2 v at the battery. Hit the tit and it started first attempt (volt meter showing 12.8v) - ran for 5 seconds and cut out. Rev counter needle stayed indicating 1400 rpm with the ignition switched off; go figure!

Second attempt to start, ignition on, digital display functioning. Hit the button and total blank, no digital display. Checked voltage at the battery tender lead (LH rear shock) - 0 v! Like somebody had just disconnected the positive battery lead. Noted at some stage the rev counter needle had dropped to zero.

Tank off (again). Battery shows 14.2v. Checked both earths - all good. Checked all fuses including main fuse on positive lead; All good visually, all good resistance readings. Made sure all fuses and relays were pushed home fully. Waggled a few random leads here and there. Tank on, reconnect. Ignition on, 12.9v. Hit the button and starts first time. Idles perfectly, as ever. Revs cleanly once warmed up with voltage builds to 14.2v. All good, as if like magic!

Mmmm, now not sure whether I have a charging problem, a loose connection, faulty wiring loom, dodgy relay Or a combination of the above. Awesome :oops: ! Gonna start by changing all of the relays - did we decide that the Honda relays were the best option or other. Thanks Tony/all. Still smiling, but only just!!
 
Hi Stephen, It's obviously something breaking down under load. The fact that everything died when you hit the starter button would seem to suggest that the battery is at fault and the zero reading at the battery tender plug seems to bear this out as its directly connected to the battery isn't it? I have heard in the past of battery terminal posts breaking inside the casing and making intermittent contact which cannot handle high load.
 

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