Jaguar and Norton combo

I know of a fellow who pulled the V12 out of his Jag and replaced it with a Ford eight. The 12 was heavy on the repair bill. By the way, if this offends you, go off and buy a V8 Jag and refit
an original power unit. This way you can feel virtuous!

Yes, I'm amused with all the comments about American V8's in British cars. I doubt anyone gets romantic about AC Aces or Sunbeam Alpines, but Cobras and Tigers another story. Hardly blasphemy when the vehicle performs better and is more reliable.
A good chassis with a mediocre drive train is always a good candidate for the upgrade. It's been going on since the automobile was invented.
As much as the E type Jaguar was an icon of the 60's, I preferred the Datsun Z cars of the 70's for the same look.
Wish I still had the '78 280Z that my kids lament I sold.......
Oh well, still have the Nortons.......
As Jimi Hendrix once said, "that's ok, I still have my guitar" (Red House)

acotrel said:

Is the frame of the Norton a Mk4 Seeley ? I never believed in two into one exhausts until I really needed one. They can be very effective, as long as the tail pipe is not too small in diameter. With a Commando engine, you never try to rev them as far as they can go. A good two into one exhaust takes a bit off the top and adds it to the middle, where it is needed.

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The frame is a Vendetta by the late John Caffrey, essentially a relica of the Seeley.

Ken

Dug out some more pictures.

This is the bike at Daytona in 1984, the first time I saw it. It was either the first or second time Martin had brought it there.





Ken

And a picture of the bike at Bonneville in 2009. Like I said, the bike has had an interesting life.



There's a fun article on the bike as run by Martin here. For what it's worth, I'm the "Navy Missile Engineer" he's referring to.

file:///C:/Users/fauxj/Documents/LCR/Bike%20Pictures%20and%20Info/Commonwealth%20Norton/Readers%E2%80%99%20Rides%20Martin%20Adams%E2%80%99%20Commonwealth%20Racing%20Norton.html

Ken

Hi all,
Well, I guess in 2022 fitting an American V8 into an E type (of any other desirable non American car) does seem to be sacrilege. But, and this is the big but, the reason that so many things are now regarded as special and wonderful is that for much of their life they were not highly regarded and as such had a huge attrition rate, mostly into the jaws of a crusher.
Therefore it is probably reasonable to assume that many of the vehicles that were re-engined in the past may otherwise of ended up in the wreckers yard and not even been around today in any shape or form. It is the very fact that they are now rare that gives them much of their great appeal. Of course an E Type was desirable, sexy or however else you want to describe it but after they lost their first flush of youth, they could be bought very cheaply, ergo, they were not appreciated. Similarly, I clearly remember several very cheap Commandos I didn’t buy in early eighties even although I keenly wanted one.
In the late 1930s the Indian In-line Four Cylinder Motorcycle was cannibalised for it’s engine as it was was popularly used by many home builders of aeroplanes (not dissimilar to todays Ultralight aircraft). I’m sure these days we would far more value the Indian bike than a long defunct, cobbled up home built aeroplane of marginal performance and no particular merit.
I am also a member of a Lee Enfield Forum (British 303 service rifle through both world wars (and more)) and keen owner of the rifles as collectables but also as my daily shooters in managing my sheep property. Now there were literally millions upon millions of these fine military rifles produced across the Empire, the vast majority now long gone to be crushed and recycled as whatever. During there heyday many thousands were ‘sporterised’ for civilian use, that is having their full wood forends ‘cut down‘ and various unwanted fittings such as bayonet attachments removed, to produce a very robust and useful rifle that looks very similar to any other ‘off the shelf’ hunting rifle. But here’s the point, on this particular forum many absolutely denigrate these sporting rifles and consider it a sacrilege, however, if they had not been so emasculated they certainly wouldn’t have survived anyway. So why do they so offend us? I tend to see the conversion as a valuable and useful extension of their lives ( and perhaps philosophically much better to have them used for pest control than their original purpose). So no, I wouldn’t modify one today because there is not that many originals still about but the fact that they were the rifle of choice used by thousands of Cockies (Oz slang for farmers), kangaroo and crocodile shooters etc in the sixties (just in Australia) gives these ’sporters’ credibility in itself.
So the same with Jags that were fitted with V8s in the seventies and eighties and even perhaps Tritons, Norvins, Rob North Tridents and other highly modified British bikes.
All we can say now is that in the 2020s when we do come across a reasonably original example of our bikes (or cars) it would not be the done thing to take an angle grinder or an oxy torch to it to swap engines etc.
As a final word I have an insanely original Daimler Double Six (read V12 jag) for sale and cannot get any interest in it so if someone did buy it and strapped an American lump of iron into it, one could hardly complain as the original was available at a reasonable price.
Just some thoughts
Alan

baz said:

It's a bit like fitting an Allinson v-1710 into a spitfire!!!

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In humour, would that be like replacing the Allison with a Merlin in the case of the Mustang

Alan L said:

In humour, would that be like replacing the Allison with a Merlin in the case of the Mustang

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Yep it's exactly like that

I think some vehicles help people fantasise about being real racing drivers. The truth is that anyone climbing into a F1 car for the first time, probably could not move it 3 metres without stalling it. My friend had a E type years ago. It was like riding on a wooden cart. Anyway - an E type fitted with a V8 motor, pulling a trailer - what is that ? Might be good on the Nurburgring ? You could put a horse in the trailer operating a tread-mill.

lcrken said:

Dug out some more pictures.

This is the bike at Daytona in 1984, the first time I saw it. It was either the first or second time Martin had brought it there.

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Ken

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My Seeley 850 has the Mk3 frame, but it is pretty much the same deal. He has even got the TTI gearbox.

How we view things changes over time. To my father a 1940 Buick was a second hand car that ate a lot of fuel. To me it was a really cool old car that I got for 800 dollars from the original owners kid who just wanted some cash. Then it became a collector car. Now it is rapidly losing its collector car value and soon will be worth scrap price.
Times change, fashions change, what is cool changes, what is legal changes. It ALL changes. Just depends on where and when we are.

They're not putting a 'better' engine in the Jag, they're putting a way more desirable, iconic bodyshell round that common old power unit

It seems this engine swap has polarized opinions. All have made valid points . It seems that some consider the car (Jaguar E Type in this case ) as a whole and others a grouping of components - the grouping camp thinks it is still a Jag when it’s Jaguar engine is removed and replaced with whatever. I don’t think it is - for better or worse it has been lessened. To me the inline six with it’s beautiful cam covers , distinctive growl made all the better when piped through that mile long exhaust is an integral part of the whole .
I can understand the appeal of dependability but that’s what they make Hondas for .
While I don’t own a Jag and unless the lottery ticket thing pays off one day I likely never will , I have a friend that has a few and has been immersed in them for quite a while . He assures me that there are now fixes for all of the issues that may have troubled these cars early on .
I don’t think my thought process will be too difficult to grasp for most who read this - after all we own or like two wheeled dinosaurs.

Love the E-Type (or XKE as I believe it was known over there) but as a further case of heresy, what about Astons with Jag engines!!!! Blasphemy!

New Aston Martins now have Mercedes engines Probably lessens their appeal to many but probably makes a better car

nortonmews said:

New Aston Martins now have Mercedes engines Probably lessens their appeal to many but probably makes a better car

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As per Rolls/BMW/Mini et al.... It's a very incestuous industry.....

lcrken said:

And a picture of the bike at Bonneville in 2009. Like I said, the bike has had an interesting life.

View attachment 97050

There's a fun article on the bike as run by Martin here. For what it's worth, I'm the "Navy Missile Engineer" he's referring to.

file:///C:/Users/fauxj/Documents/LCR/Bike%20Pictures%20and%20Info/Commonwealth%20Norton/Readers%E2%80%99%20Rides%20Martin%20Adams%E2%80%99%20Commonwealth%20Racing%20Norton.html

Ken

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Thanks Ken for trying to keep this thread going in a reasonable direction.

'Rides'

Thread? What thread was that?

lcrken said:

This is a bike with an interesting history, and a fair number of changes over the years. When I rebuilt the engine for the original owner, Martin Adams, back in '87, it had a 79 mm bore using Omega pistons, an 89 mm stroke Nourish crank, and Crower titanium rods. The head was ported, with bigger valves (titanium), and welded into a bathtub combustion chamber shape, by ex-Norton tuner Jim Messler. The cam was an Axtell grind. Crankcases were a new set of Mk3, with shims to move the main bearings inward to match the earlier crankshaft. Ignition was a crank-triggered Lucas box. Carbs were Mk2 Amals on extended manifolds. Exhaust was 1 5/8" pipes into Axtell reverse cone megaphones. These are pictures of the bike from 1987.

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Daytona '87 was the only race the bike managed to finish, and Martin put it on display in his home for a while after that, and then into barn storage. I eventually bought it from him, went through the engine again, just to make sure it was good, and tidied up the cosmetics a bit. In 2001 I sold it to Fred, and modified it with different forks and brakes, and a few other changes so he could road race it. This is a pictuer of the bike at that time.

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After trying it at Daytona in 2002, Fred decided to take it to Bonneville for landspeed racing instead of road racing. He made some changes to the bike, going back to the original forks, wheels, and such. This is a picture of the bike at Bonneville in 2008.

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Fred hooked up with well-known Indian tuner, Jim Mosher, and they made some mods to the bike and engine, and added nitrous oxide injection. I'm not sure of all the engine changes, but I think they took it out to 81 mm bore for 920 cc. I think they also made some other significant changes to the engine components. This is a picture of the bike from Bonneville in 2010, when Fred tied the existing class record, running 155.722 mph.

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Unfortunately, the landspeed racing story doesn't end well here. On another attempt at Bonneville he crashed at 150+ mph, and was seriously injured. While he was recovering, he decided to restore the bike, which was seriously bent, to its orginal configuration (more or less ), but as a street bike, and eventually did so.

The pictures Jim posted are how it ended up.

Ken

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My friend and racing buddy Chris Scott raced this Norton at Laguna Seca BOTT around 1985 or so and was doing well until the cases cracked and failed around the output bearing. Later on when Fred bought the bike he and Jim Mosher contacted me about refurbilshing the motor with 81mm light weight pistons, longer rods, a JS2 cam etc and rebalanced the engine for the new pistons. With the nitrous kit it was reported to put out 150HP on the dyno. When Fred fired it up at Bonneville he said "what happened to the vibration?" The bike was all set up, the engine in top form but the salt was in terrible condition with ruts etc from the cars and it was not a good day to run. Fred ran it anyway and things went awry when he shifted into top gear and hit the nitrous button. It started fishtailing from side to side. He tried backing off the thottle, changed his seating position, then gave it full throttle with nitrous hoping that would straighten it out but it went completely sideways., endoed and threw him off in a highside to land heavily on his shoulder. After the crash Jim Mosher inspected the track leading up to the crash site and saw 75 foot long sections of black tire marks from the weaving/sliding. Later they found a round hole in the rear tire and Fred thinks he picked up some debris from a blown engine etc - causing a flat that brought on the catastrophy. Crashing at 150 mph is some serious shit and Fred is lucky to still be with us. He was a great road racer and is a gentleman. He won scores of races and earned himself the nickname of "Phenomenal Fred".

Fred (on left) and me in our glory days after taking 1st and 2nd on Nortons at Laguna Seca BOTT 750 in 1984. You can tell from his smile that Fred edged me out on the last lap.