Hey Swoosh, You know once you've developed a relationship with people from a company or have at least done repete biz with them that's one thing & even then the "human element" means things go bad so it is certainly NOT " Stuoid Simple" as to who to do biz with these days. I have learned to designate part numbers, part names, place etc & now only buy things from people who are "real Norton " people. Not jut Internet hacks looking to make a dime, not to say all "On line" sellers are Hacks because they are not...I understand your direct style of language ( in real life I'm much harsher myself )9 But it's NOT stupid simple for a newbe to know the differance.
Is it just me? A serious question on restoring a Norton.
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gtsun said:
The guy has been on the forum since 2008. I don't consider that a newbe.
Hegel said:
Got to be one of the most ignorant statements I have seen for a long time. Only some sort of sheep-consumer-trash would believe what is thrown at them by the media world in magazines/TV shows.
I call this the "restoration mill", a phenomenon which began in the 1980s when Brit bikes began to get trendy and collectible. Back before Brit bikes became collectors items and/or trendy, many more dealers and riders of Brit bikes were competent mechanics than now, where we have just the opposite, most riders of Brit bikes got into them at some point in the 1980s when all the clubs for them sprung up.
In the "restoration mill", some Johhny-come-lately person or SHOP gets a bike, tears it all apart and sends the various pieces out for 1. bead blasting(destroy original appearance of cast parts) 2. plastic coating(as if the bike is going to the surface of Venus someday) 3 rebuild(by who?) 4. Plating(or very likely a basket of poorly machined stainless crap to bolt on) 4. Clear coating.(which always gives the bike the look that a teenager in the 70s owns it). Viola! an aesthetically over-restored POS that is probably less reliable than when it was new, which will not usually matter because 9/10 times it will only do a few hundred miles a year anyway.
What is really funny is that people that do this unbolt/ship-it-out/bolt it back together routine call themselves "builders", especially if they have the sensational creativity to put one or two non-standard parts on the "build".
In the old days the only things that usually got farmed out by a rider/mechanic or local shop was a bore-job or crank grind to the local engine-shop, the rest was done skillfully and resourcefully in-house. Were there custom and show bikes? Sure, but they usually all served double-duty as riders/track bikes and they RAN as well as they looked.
The "boutique" shops and the bike-night-dummy's with more cash than brains are two late phenomena that are custom made for each other, and when they end up at each others throats because neither of them know what they are doing, it gives me a good laugh.
Peter R
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Over the years Ihave done business with many part suppliers (Mainly in the UK) for classic bike as well as car related items.
Some of them provided excellent services, while others were so poor that they did not deserve to be in this business at all.
I know that the moderators of this forum are not particularly pleased with what is called "vendor bashing", but on the other hand, the fact that we often have to spend our hard earned cash on crap that need lots of re-work, or worse, can go straight into the bin really annoys me.
Would not it be possible to be more specific on this forum about the quality and service we get from the various part /service suppliers ?
Just a thought..
Some of them provided excellent services, while others were so poor that they did not deserve to be in this business at all.
I know that the moderators of this forum are not particularly pleased with what is called "vendor bashing", but on the other hand, the fact that we often have to spend our hard earned cash on crap that need lots of re-work, or worse, can go straight into the bin really annoys me.
Would not it be possible to be more specific on this forum about the quality and service we get from the various part /service suppliers ?
Just a thought..
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Peter R said:
If a person gives an actual first hand account of a bad experience with a particular company or vendor then there wouldn't necessarily be any problem with that-but choose your words carefully and I suggest the person OK's it with Jerry beforehand.
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Whilst I am the first to admit Andover Norton had their occasional hickups with parts, generally we do work to the original drawings and with trusted suppliers (foundries and forging specialists, machine shops, platers etc) we have used for many years. Sometimes one gets a freak fault with a new batch for which no possible explanation exists.
We have established a formal quality control system replacing the informal, occasional checks by our buyers a while ago. This new system has shown up the occasional problem, thankfully BEFORE the items went out to customers.
However, I sometimes wonder if it is worth our while, following discussions on various forums- only recently on the NOC forum, where the purchase of certain parts from a certain vendor, in this case a Dommi clutch part, is being recommended, solely because it is considerably less than our offering. I know this cheap part comes from India and won't fit or do its job- I read, only recently, the odyssee of a purchaser of that very part he undertook to make it fit and do its job on another forum- but a not inconsiderable proportion of fellow Norton enthusiasts put price before quality.
Whilst Andover Norton as a company does not run a workshop, I, the company owner, work on my own Nortons, and a good friend of mine runs a workshop where he rebuilds one Norton after another. So from personal experience as well as direct, often daily feedback, I get to know if, and in that case where, we have a problem.
Press coverage is never a good indicator. The 20-year-old journo who turns up at the "specialist's" doorstep knows virtually nothing and faithfully notes all the tall stories he is being told and publishes them. And he does turn up because the "specialist" either has the biggest advert in that field in his magazine, or because said specialist helped out in the past when the mag was in the financial ropes....... I know a couple of good stories!
A better source is the web, even though people who have been had generally don't boast the fact, and others boast about how little they paid, forgetting the issues they had with the cheap part- if, indeed, they have tried to fit it yet. So don't rely blindly on the web recommendations either.
We have established a formal quality control system replacing the informal, occasional checks by our buyers a while ago. This new system has shown up the occasional problem, thankfully BEFORE the items went out to customers.
However, I sometimes wonder if it is worth our while, following discussions on various forums- only recently on the NOC forum, where the purchase of certain parts from a certain vendor, in this case a Dommi clutch part, is being recommended, solely because it is considerably less than our offering. I know this cheap part comes from India and won't fit or do its job- I read, only recently, the odyssee of a purchaser of that very part he undertook to make it fit and do its job on another forum- but a not inconsiderable proportion of fellow Norton enthusiasts put price before quality.
Whilst Andover Norton as a company does not run a workshop, I, the company owner, work on my own Nortons, and a good friend of mine runs a workshop where he rebuilds one Norton after another. So from personal experience as well as direct, often daily feedback, I get to know if, and in that case where, we have a problem.
Press coverage is never a good indicator. The 20-year-old journo who turns up at the "specialist's" doorstep knows virtually nothing and faithfully notes all the tall stories he is being told and publishes them. And he does turn up because the "specialist" either has the biggest advert in that field in his magazine, or because said specialist helped out in the past when the mag was in the financial ropes....... I know a couple of good stories!
A better source is the web, even though people who have been had generally don't boast the fact, and others boast about how little they paid, forgetting the issues they had with the cheap part- if, indeed, they have tried to fit it yet. So don't rely blindly on the web recommendations either.
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choose your words carefully
swooshdave,
No, I guess I'm not a newbie, tho It's been about 20 years since I last took a bike apart. Engines and gearboxes were def' not my forte. So in that time, When I got time, I've learned how to take them apart what to look for, get stuff re-ground/re-bored/WHY and put them back together again properly so I'll be able to ride it every day there after, without the worry of it going BANG! after a few weeks.
Apart from reading the posts from you guys here and asking the occasional question(very grateful for the replies!) + a NOC video, I've had to learn everything I know about engines and gearboxes on my own. Watching video's and getting advice is great, but it's still not the same as having real hands on experience. And again that's taken TIME for me to learn that. I really don't give a sh1t that the rebuild has taken 4 and a bit years, if the current vendor failures get corrected in the next few weeks, then I'll be well on the way to having it back on the road this coming summer.
beng,
I've thought about the content of your post, given the company in which you post this kind of bigotry, I feel sorry for you.
So just to set the record straight, bearing in mind you know absolutely nothing about me, or the level of my personal/ professional life...As far as I'm concerned I've still not earned that coveted title of 'builder', or rider for that matter. I am still very much an "Apprentice".
If I had to choose a single vendor that stood head and shoulder above the rest for their commitment to excellence in my neck of the woods, even tho they have, as ZFD puts it had the odd "hick-up" are the guys at Andover. Period.
79x100,
I had to order the frame by post as I don't own a car. Just own the bikes.
Yep I agree with what you say, tho most I've learned the hard way.
As for that oil tank....I'd given it to them to do a 'complete-refurb'. :roll: When it come to doing the next bike (An 'S'), I'll be doing the thing myself. :wink:
No, I guess I'm not a newbie, tho It's been about 20 years since I last took a bike apart. Engines and gearboxes were def' not my forte. So in that time, When I got time, I've learned how to take them apart what to look for, get stuff re-ground/re-bored/WHY and put them back together again properly so I'll be able to ride it every day there after, without the worry of it going BANG! after a few weeks.
Apart from reading the posts from you guys here and asking the occasional question(very grateful for the replies!) + a NOC video, I've had to learn everything I know about engines and gearboxes on my own. Watching video's and getting advice is great, but it's still not the same as having real hands on experience. And again that's taken TIME for me to learn that. I really don't give a sh1t that the rebuild has taken 4 and a bit years, if the current vendor failures get corrected in the next few weeks, then I'll be well on the way to having it back on the road this coming summer.
beng,
I've thought about the content of your post, given the company in which you post this kind of bigotry, I feel sorry for you.
So just to set the record straight, bearing in mind you know absolutely nothing about me, or the level of my personal/ professional life...As far as I'm concerned I've still not earned that coveted title of 'builder', or rider for that matter. I am still very much an "Apprentice".
If I had to choose a single vendor that stood head and shoulder above the rest for their commitment to excellence in my neck of the woods, even tho they have, as ZFD puts it had the odd "hick-up" are the guys at Andover. Period.
79x100,
I had to order the frame by post as I don't own a car. Just own the bikes.
Yep I agree with what you say, tho most I've learned the hard way.
As for that oil tank....I'd given it to them to do a 'complete-refurb'. :roll: When it come to doing the next bike (An 'S'), I'll be doing the thing myself. :wink:
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I find this thread entertaining...
My original niorton afair was in 1970-72, having rekindled my norton afair in about 1988, I've bought in excess of $20k in norton stuff/bits. What I learned in that period is you pays your money and take your chances. I now routinely recommend talking with your vendor who probably has access to "genuine" norton parts that you absolutely insist and have an understanding of what needs to be genuine and what aftermarket parts are acceptable. Unfortunately the supply chain changes over time and I am now out of the loop since I have not bought that much in the last 5-7 years and my shelfs are full of parts that are for MY projects. I now do all my own work and machining except grind cranks so for me, the complaint department is at the mirror. :mrgreen:
My original niorton afair was in 1970-72, having rekindled my norton afair in about 1988, I've bought in excess of $20k in norton stuff/bits. What I learned in that period is you pays your money and take your chances. I now routinely recommend talking with your vendor who probably has access to "genuine" norton parts that you absolutely insist and have an understanding of what needs to be genuine and what aftermarket parts are acceptable. Unfortunately the supply chain changes over time and I am now out of the loop since I have not bought that much in the last 5-7 years and my shelfs are full of parts that are for MY projects. I now do all my own work and machining except grind cranks so for me, the complaint department is at the mirror. :mrgreen:
Onder
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A good thread. Must remember that bikes, Nortons, are a different thing to each person.
Some want a dead genuine stock as issued bike. Like the 100 point guys with the old cars.
"That switch cluster was polished but then it was cleared and yours isnt cleared so you lose a point"
"But I like it polished"..."Too bad , you are WRONG".
Some want a cafe racer. Those guys can be amazing like Ludwig. Being a machinist and having
a lathe puts him above most of us. I cannot even turn up a bloody washer.
Others race or build. Think Jim, wizard of the CNC and having a brain that thinks up stuff
for it do do. Forget not CNW who are blindingly expensive BUT you get what you pay for.
Like Wolfie, I have an aviation background. All parts are judged by that standard and Im almost
always disappointed. But our bikes were built by failing manufacturers with clapped out tools and
establishments. They were built to a price, a tight margin to say the least.
Suspect most of us here are greybeards and we had these same bikes back in the day. So we
know damn well what crapulous pieces they really were. Keep it in mind when you splash for
the odd bit . If you want to buy crap plenty will be there for you . Say thank you that AN bothers
to invest capital in their venture and be amazed their boss actually rides much less touches wrenches.
Think we need to keep it in mind that money and time drive all. In youth, it is about money,
in old age time. In later middle age we get a brief window where we often have both and
thence commence The Project.
...there goes our money and time!
Some want a dead genuine stock as issued bike. Like the 100 point guys with the old cars.
"That switch cluster was polished but then it was cleared and yours isnt cleared so you lose a point"
"But I like it polished"..."Too bad , you are WRONG".
Some want a cafe racer. Those guys can be amazing like Ludwig. Being a machinist and having
a lathe puts him above most of us. I cannot even turn up a bloody washer.
Others race or build. Think Jim, wizard of the CNC and having a brain that thinks up stuff
for it do do. Forget not CNW who are blindingly expensive BUT you get what you pay for.
Like Wolfie, I have an aviation background. All parts are judged by that standard and Im almost
always disappointed. But our bikes were built by failing manufacturers with clapped out tools and
establishments. They were built to a price, a tight margin to say the least.
Suspect most of us here are greybeards and we had these same bikes back in the day. So we
know damn well what crapulous pieces they really were. Keep it in mind when you splash for
the odd bit . If you want to buy crap plenty will be there for you . Say thank you that AN bothers
to invest capital in their venture and be amazed their boss actually rides much less touches wrenches.
Think we need to keep it in mind that money and time drive all. In youth, it is about money,
in old age time. In later middle age we get a brief window where we often have both and
thence commence The Project.
...there goes our money and time!
Dont have the numbers on hand, but was told by someone in the business that the Vintage bike part/accessory supply market in the UK now exceeds the annual total value of all new motorcycle sales there.
This is a good thing for us, these parts suppliers may stick around!
Glen
This is a good thing for us, these parts suppliers may stick around!
Glen
concours
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Hegel said:Hey guys.
In recent days I've been asking whether there's something about myself that invites vendors of goods or services to seriously f*ck with my head.
So much so I'm starting to seriously consider setting up my own shop and doing the whole freaking lot myself.
Or am I missing something here?
Is it normal to buy a new frame and have it delivered in a wildly floppy box and come pre-scratched?
Is it normal to send an oil tank off for a refurb, only to have it returned not only with the old oil still in it + all the media blasting now mixed in with it?
Is it normal to send a petrol tank off for a respray, to have it returned with a load of crap and overspray on the inside of it? Besides the fact it took "7 MONTHS" for the work to be done!
Is it normal to spend £200 on a fancy cam, only to find the '-tard' who machined it left all the shrapnel inside the thing?
Is it normal to send stuff off for media blasting, the vendor can't be bothered to clean the media out afterwards?
Is it normal when you send a set of barrels off for a rebore they come back having only a light hone, the score marks are still clearly visible?
Is it normal that when you question their work, they get aggressive?
The list goes on....And it really does!
I feel like the malfunction magnet.
So I've got a question for you guys....Should I be treating every purchase I make with suspicion? To carefully inspect/measure every component against specs, and not to take things at face value(i.e. expect products/services to be correct at the point of purchase), ever again?
I'm sorry for the bit of a rant...I'm just having some real issues here.
H
Dude, you are spot on. Our world is going to hell in a handbasket. Very hard to find knowledgeable craftsmen, that LISTEN to what you want, and don't make a mess.
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Hegel said:Hey guys.
In recent days I've been asking whether there's something about myself that invites vendors of goods or services to seriously f*ck with my head.
So much so I'm starting to seriously consider setting up my own shop and doing the whole freaking lot myself.
Or am I missing something here?
Is it normal to buy a new frame and have it delivered in a wildly floppy box and come pre-scratched?
Is it normal to send an oil tank off for a refurb, only to have it returned not only with the old oil still in it + all the media blasting now mixed in with it?
Is it normal to send a petrol tank off for a respray, to have it returned with a load of crap and overspray on the inside of it? Besides the fact it took "7 MONTHS" for the work to be done!
Is it normal to spend £200 on a fancy cam, only to find the '-tard' who machined it left all the shrapnel inside the thing?
Is it normal to send stuff off for media blasting, the vendor can't be bothered to clean the media out afterwards?
Is it normal when you send a set of barrels off for a rebore they come back having only a light hone, the score marks are still clearly visible?
Is it normal that when you question their work, they get aggressive?
The list goes on....And it really does!
I feel like the malfunction magnet.
So I've got a question for you guys....Should I be treating every purchase I make with suspicion? To carefully inspect/measure every component against specs, and not to take things at face value(i.e. expect products/services to be correct at the point of purchase), ever again?
I'm sorry for the bit of a rant...I'm just having some real issues here.
H
I have had good experiences with almost every service (or product) I have used for the Norton and my race bikes. In conjunction with being involved in restoring/repairing/rebuilding motorcycles for the last 55 years, even when I was young and had little money i always went with the guy (or the best product) that was rated as doing excellent work but too darn expensive. It usually isn't too expensive. in the long run. CNW is a good example. When I bought their front and rear brake system (really expensive) many on this board commented that some jury rig conversion or buying a bunch of parts cost much less and was "just as good" as the CNW kit. Not true. You get what you pay for.
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worntorn said:
If the manufacturers start makeing more vintage and classic motorcycles again , theyll go on forever .
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Hegel
Some good suppliers out that but the one I us almost exclusively with nothing but great parts and service is OldBritts over here stateside.
http://www.oldbritts.com/ob_start.html
Great site with lots of additional information for the do-it-yourselfer.
With todays shipping by air you may find them competitive with UK sources.
Bob
Some good suppliers out that but the one I us almost exclusively with nothing but great parts and service is OldBritts over here stateside.
http://www.oldbritts.com/ob_start.html
Great site with lots of additional information for the do-it-yourselfer.
With todays shipping by air you may find them competitive with UK sources.
Bob
I'm a big supporter of old britts as well. Although I have just learned that I really have no right "re-building" a bike, as I am not qualified .... :roll: perhaps because I'm the spawn of two Brits gives me a leg up over non-British, non-mechanically inclined, non-"true" bike builders....
SteveA
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rx7171 said:
Exchange rate is OK, and for lighweight stuff the shipping US UK is OK, but when you get hit with UK import tax and then 20% VAT, which is rated on the cost including the shipping, plus a processing charge it is less of a good deal......and if its heavy and you pay $200 for tracked and insured shipping..it has to be really good....
I am interested in things like their ignition, which is a practical international purchase, but for engine parts AN sourced via the reputable UK guys should make sense....
Services are a different thing, I am over the moon with the fabrication I have had recently from two UK one man, craftsman sources, but you do have to look hard to find these gems and you will work in their time frame, not yours....
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