I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrades

Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad

When I'm cruising down the freeway on my cafe Atlas with the smooth running lightweight pistons & valvetrain, PWK flatside carbs, reliable Hunt magneto, belt drive, tall gearing etc - there is no other bike that I would rather be riding.

Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad

mike996 said:

"young guys think you have to have 150 horses, sleek plastic and 7 inch wide tires"

So do some old guys…

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(So do some old guys ) I don't agree simply because I'm too chicken to use 150 horses with the 'slide and drive' mentality you must use with a speedway bike. Have you watched the rear shots in the slow motion MotoGP videos ? All that continual side slip is mind-bogglingly dangerous. Talk about having blind faith that your tyres and suspension won't change while you are racing ?
You don't need to do that to have fun, all you need is a level playing field and any type of bike will suffice.

Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad

Naw, there's ooddles and ooddles of dudes and dudeetts that can slide similar to the elite pilots on elite cycles and likely about any one actually wanting to do this could learn to in an afternoon, not expert of course but could play a recognizable tune in glee. Actually if you get a bit too spunky on tipping a turn to enter a road the rear can too easy just spin,skip-slip and zing or snap right down. Easiest surface to learn sense of bikes pivot point on vertical CoG and speed of trip downs and pop ups, hard to beat good ole soft dirt w/o a hard pack under neath to change the constant predicable traction reaction. Dry Sand also but must attack way more agressively than dirt, but wet is almost ideal too. On decent grass can blip for a step out that self corrects but still give a zing up the cleaveage. Snow 5-10" has enough traction and drag to play on and learn w/o much risk breaking neck or bile. Its was snow practice in a bowel shaped pasture that I prefected the accelerating straight steering frame binding tire conflicted sharper and sharper spiral right into a snow angle. Think - accelerating, rear spining yet not drifting out but greatly sharpening the radius, to just let go to sling shot off the tangent into desired path, instead of holding on to the soft landing. There is also the issue with power to spare - it don't feel like ya straining the cycle so less sense to behave. I like looking at my factory Trixie but not much a lingering impression. On viewing Peel excessive or minimalist extra cost features, it leaves me feeling like X-mass present I want and see the outline through the wrapper.. We'd enjoy more plain Jane tales and mild routine satisfactions but that don't posted as much for some reason...

Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad

I learned to ride at 13 on an old Suzuki in the sand...only time it hurt when I fell was when the handlebar tore through my pant leg and got me "you know where".

Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad

jseng1 said:

When I'm cruising down the freeway on my cafe Atlas with the smooth running lightweight pistons & valvetrain, PWK flatside carbs, reliable Hunt magneto, belt drive, tall gearing etc - there is no other bike that I would rather be riding.

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That's what I'm talking about Couldn't have said it better.

Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad

If you believe you can ride 'slide and drive', the next time you really lose the back end of your commando at high speed on the bitumen , grab a great big handful of throttle and drive the bike upright. Sounds good in theory ?

Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad

Gosh Alan skipping to drifting on an untamed isostatic C'do is not really possible to control but in very special places and on purpose expecting it as ya creep up on more power lean an sharpeness. I don't like it happening on the moderns as it causes them to change lean angle unpredictably which throws off line in turns and can pivot bike on front tire to high side > if not just low siding with rear end leading the way. On my one in a row tri-linked Peel the real fun didn't start til low siding for the hi side saves in narrower places than freeway like pit lanes. BY FAR I feel improving handling so not having to slow down for turns but allow powering up harshly to enter them is best performance upgrade then pairing mass off. When ya really have a total neutral handler you can't upset to break free w/o excessive lean, power and sharpeness easy enough for your tastes then extra power worth while in public and tracts. Its kind of boring to keep em stock as no imagination needed to plot and improve on entertaining restless souls.

Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad

I believe that theoretically you should be able to ride a modern GP bike as you would a speedway Jawa. I hadn't seen the slo-mo videos of them in action until recently. If you watch the rear shots, it is quite spectacular. It is probably the reason that riders like Stoner, Gardner, and Doohan who come up through Moto Cross do so well ? I know Kenny Roberts was primarily a dirt rider. Most of my own experience has been on road race bikes with old rock hard tyres, and if the rear end ever moved a fraction, you were immediately on the deck. These days with the gumball tyres on the old style bikes it is extremely easy to ride well on the bitumen.. I've watched the kids in historic racing a lot. These days the angles of lean are much greater, and the guys seem to get away with silly stuff which would have crashed most us in the old days. I use Battlaxe tyres and I think they are brilliant, the way I ride these days I am still quick however I never get anywhere near their limit.

Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad

In our hobby and profession there are restorers, racers, hot rodders, and collectors. Each has his own interest and mode of operation. It usually makes them happy to do what they do and that is all that is necessary.

Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad

aceaceca said:

In our hobby and profession there are restorers, racers, hot rodders, and collectors. Each has his own interest and mode of operation. It usually makes them happy to do what they do and that is all that is necessary.

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+1

Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad

I tend to modify all my modern bikes but leave the old ones as close to original as I find them with one exception: I focus on reliability and easy starting.

For example, my 2005 Aprilia Tuono Factory has: Full Titanium Akrapovic exhaust system, modified cold air intake system with hi-flow filter, re-flashed ECU with a Power Commander, tuned on a Dyno by a road race specialist. Numerous other small mods that make this one of the best performance machines I have ever owned, bar none.
Cheers, Frank

Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad

And safety - which to me means brakes and lighting.

Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad

worntorn said:

I don't know why people would come to a public forum and not expect to see some views that are different from their own, but people do, and some even get quite angry about this fact of life.
The OPs views are different than my own, but his question made me think and he makes a good point. So to be cliche, it's all good.
That holds until someone gets nasty because others do not see it their way. Thankfully that doesn't happen too often here, and that must be down to the job Les does. He does a good job of moderating, barely visible (as moderator) but keeping things mostly civil.


Glen

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Hey thanks for the nice gesture of understanding Glen. As I said earlier, no malice intended with my question. I have certainly made my share of "improvements" and "performance upgrades" on my '74 850 Roadster over the years (higher compression, bigger carbs, longer duration cam, Dunstall Silencers, 19T C/S sprocket, Boyer ignition, etc.), and It is still my experience that for every performance upgrade I make, the power increase is modest and there seems to be an equal and opposite loss in reliability, for the most part. Increases in heat (from higher compression) especially create reliability problems at the cylinder head. At high elevation passes in the mountains (10,000 ft. ASL) I had almost NO power due to the big dual carbs, and they were not running all that rich at the time. To tell you the truth, the biggest seat-of-the-pants increase in power I experienced was on a trip from Denver to Kearney Nebraska when the bike was bone stock. The increase in power due to the increase in air density from Denver's 5000 ft altitude to Kearney's 2,200-ft. was DRAMATIC.... with a girlfriend seated on the back no less. I checked the plugs and they were bright white (lean of course), but still the power was impressive in comparison to the CO area.

Reduced reliability and cost are the two factors that I have issue with. As a retired ME I question the return on investment (power versus cost and reliability) from all of the performance upgrades I have made, and from my experience I can not now justify it. But as has been pointed out by others here, hey, it's a hobby and a person can put there $ in a lot worse places than their Norton (booze, drugs, etc. LOL).

Bill

Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad

HaHa Bill, just as I thot, your a pot stirring poster - but nice winter alternative to which winter oil is best. You have confused tuning set up with racing up grades, ie: basic lighter stronger tougher items and more exacting fitting, excepting tires and pistons/rings stuff. I've been through the old school performance upgrade path on past late Ms Peel, to be disapointed following induction and head and exhaust normal wisdoms till Lucked TF Out and can't ever get out my bones the thrill so gone crazy trying for mo mo mo. On the other hand plain Jane Trixie is more than enough for sane fun and work a day commuttes and errands. Point being if ya can't get at least two then you will always be conflicted, keep one close to factory and remove or cover over what's Norton issued Commandos. Budha might point out that Norton also spent endless time money on many projects trying to get away from their ever loving 5 yr in a row best cycle so why should any of us break tradition.

Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad

Larso1 said:

[Reduced reliability and cost are the two factors that I have issue with. As a retired ME I question the return on investment (power versus cost and reliability) from all of the performance upgrades I have made, and from my experience I can not now justify it. But as has been pointed out by others here, hey, it's a hobby and a person can put there $ in a lot worse places than their Norton (booze, drugs, etc. LOL).

Bill

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Hmmm...I totally misinterpreted your original post. I think the reason that happened has to do with whether it is acceptable to "upgrade" a Commando. IMO performance upgrades have their place, but some probably don't fit on a true street machine. By that I mean a machine intended to be driven for pleasure or used as an everyday rider. This is why on the MKIII that I am bringing back to life I have concentrated on suspension, brakes and engine reliability. I have added allow yokes and a billet dash, mainly because I like the way it all looks together. I added a Corbin Gunfighter seat because I like the look and the riding position. I changed the bars to 1" in order to install late model switch gear and master cylinder. I am putting together Brembo brakes front and rear to improve the stopping power. I have the Landsdowne dampers to improve the suspension up front and looking at shock options for the rear. Engine will be stock with single Mikuni flat slide carb and electronic ignition. I still have the electrics to sort but will upgrade the charging and wire in relays and a fuse block.

Your actual experience reinforces the position that engine performance upgrades may have a diminishing return for the street and possibly may cost more in the long due to reduced reliability.

Dennis

Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad

Larso1 said:

[Reduced reliability and cost are the two factors that I have issue with. As a retired ME I question the return on investment (power versus cost and reliability) from all of the performance upgrades I have made, and from my experience I can not now justify it. But as has been pointed out by others here, hey, it's a hobby and a person can put there $ in a lot worse places than their Norton (booze, drugs, etc. LOL).

Bill

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Hmmm...I totally misinterpreted your original post. I think the reason that happened has to do with whether it is acceptable to "upgrade" a Commando. IMO performance upgrades have their place, but some probably don't fit on a true street machine. By that I mean a machine intended to be driven for pleasure or used as an everyday rider. This is why on the MKIII that I am bringing back to life I have concentrated on suspension, brakes and engine reliability. I have added allow yokes and a billet dash, mainly because I like the way it all looks together. I added a Corbin Gunfighter seat because I like the look and the riding position. I changed the bars to 1" in order to install late model switch gear and master cylinder. I am putting together Brembo brakes front and rear to improve the stopping power. I have the Landsdowne dampers to improve the suspension up front and looking at shock options for the rear. Engine will be stock with single Mikuni flat slide carb and electronic ignition. I still have the electrics to sort but will upgrade the charging and wire in relays and a fuse block.

Your actual experience reinforces the position that engine performance upgrades may have a diminishing return for the street and possibly may cost more in the long due to reduced reliability.

But that shouldn't preclude discussion by other forum members who are doing performance upgrades. The diversity is still important and interesting IMO.


Dennis

Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad

Back in the day a Commando was one of the fastest, best braking vehicles on the road, 40 years later a very ordinary saloon car will out brake you in the dry and certainly in the wet, so I would suggest that braking and stability are the first areas to improve, followed by reliability and then engine performance.

Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad

ludwig said:

Larso1 said:

..It is still my experience that for every performance upgrade I make, the power increase is modest and there seems to be an equal and opposite loss in reliability, for the most part. Increases in heat (from higher compression) especially create reliability problems at the cylinder head ... Reduced reliability and cost are the two factors that I have issue with..

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All true ( been there , done that ..) , but there is another way :
Loose weight ! .
Shedding 120 - 130 lbs equals 20 HP and will transform the bike .
While the benefits of increased HP can only be experienced when you are actually USING that extra power , the benefits of less weight can be experienced ALL of the time : better accelleration and braking , less stress on frame , engine , gearbox , drive train .. less wear , tires , chain .. , less heat , better handling , less fuel consuption , increased reliability .. even pushing the bike around becomes easier .
Altough not exactly cheap , loosing 100 lbs is likely a lot cheaper than trying to gain an extra 10 HP .

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Is that weight from the rider or the bike?

Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad

If you look at it like sailing or Glideing , or other sports that use mechanisms or engines ,

youd regard it as refineing and fine tuneing . Removeing the Rough edges . ENHANCEING
the durability , reliability & longivity / though the oddmugs got no mechanical sympathy whatsoever and changes up when the engine stops going faster . :shock:
Like on a Triumph . :lol: 8) :shock:

Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad

"Altough not exactly cheap , loosing 100 lbs is likely a lot cheaper than trying to gain an extra 10 HP ."

My stock '71 weighed 418 when on the scale at the track. I can't see any way to have dropped it to 318 and still have had a "motorcycle!"