I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrades
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Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
I wouldn't go as far as to say guru, but what I have done: Currently hovering around 300#
Stock 850 motor - If someone used JS rods and pistons and a Maney barrel - could loose another 10 lbs, but it's quite $$$.
Stock transmission. - Not much weight to trim here without loosing strength.
Frame - Stock with a few mods. Added tabs for seat, rearsets and a few other bits. Using the main tube and a plug in tank under the seat for oil.
Aluminum gas tank.
Ducati Aluminum sidestand.
Hooker TT pipes and Cone Engineering mufflers.
Wheels - Magnesium Kimtabs, 20 lbs each with bearings and tires.
Brakes - Ducati Snowflakes, aluminum centers. Grimeca calipers.
Aluminum trees, head steady, forward mount, transmission cradle and swingarm.
open beltdrive primary, LED lighting, seat has an aluminum pan and housed battery and electronics.
I still need to figure out a final drive, looking for a belt setup. Find a light alternator. Figure out hand controls, inverted levers, internal throttle and switches.
I think Ludwig has the Lightest known bike. I know there is a lot of every bit has been touched to save weight on it.
He has 36 spoke rims, Ti fasteners and a host of other goodies.
I could go lighter on some stuff. But time, money and sanity get in the way.
Weight savings I have recorded:
external fork springs - 1lb
aluminum swingarm - 4lb
aluminum trans cradle - 5.75 lb
aluminum fwd mount - 1/2lb
deleted Z plates - 3lb
wheels - 15lb each
That's almost 45 pounds with these items, now take away the whole primary setup, both stands, side covers, oil tank, battery tray etc and the weight drops quickly,
The real problem happens once the big items are removed, replaced, remade. The tiny gains take quite a bit of resources.
A few pictures, because without them it didn't happen.
Unclviny said:
I wouldn't go as far as to say guru, but what I have done: Currently hovering around 300#
Stock 850 motor - If someone used JS rods and pistons and a Maney barrel - could loose another 10 lbs, but it's quite $$$.
Stock transmission. - Not much weight to trim here without loosing strength.
Frame - Stock with a few mods. Added tabs for seat, rearsets and a few other bits. Using the main tube and a plug in tank under the seat for oil.
Aluminum gas tank.
Ducati Aluminum sidestand.
Hooker TT pipes and Cone Engineering mufflers.
Wheels - Magnesium Kimtabs, 20 lbs each with bearings and tires.
Brakes - Ducati Snowflakes, aluminum centers. Grimeca calipers.
Aluminum trees, head steady, forward mount, transmission cradle and swingarm.
open beltdrive primary, LED lighting, seat has an aluminum pan and housed battery and electronics.
I still need to figure out a final drive, looking for a belt setup. Find a light alternator. Figure out hand controls, inverted levers, internal throttle and switches.
I think Ludwig has the Lightest known bike. I know there is a lot of every bit has been touched to save weight on it.
He has 36 spoke rims, Ti fasteners and a host of other goodies.
I could go lighter on some stuff. But time, money and sanity get in the way.
Weight savings I have recorded:
external fork springs - 1lb
aluminum swingarm - 4lb
aluminum trans cradle - 5.75 lb
aluminum fwd mount - 1/2lb
deleted Z plates - 3lb
wheels - 15lb each
That's almost 45 pounds with these items, now take away the whole primary setup, both stands, side covers, oil tank, battery tray etc and the weight drops quickly,
The real problem happens once the big items are removed, replaced, remade. The tiny gains take quite a bit of resources.
A few pictures, because without them it didn't happen.
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Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
Commandos are really great bikes however you cannot expect them to be what they are not. My perfect dream is to get my Seeley 850 into a race against twenty other bikes with aircooled two valve four stroke engines of similar capacity. The playing field would be level and I would burn their arses. It doesn't matter what horsepower or weight your bike is as long as there is an invisible tow rope between you and the guy in front, and you have the opportunity to outride him. Even at 250 KPH, it is the relative speeds which are important. You need a power to weight ratio high enough to get you into the game. Commandos have a handling advantage in a lot of situations. There is no way an H2 Kawasaki two stroke with 80 BHP will beat a commando with 80 BHP and similar weight in a road race, especially in the wet.
If you race a commando - pray for rain if you want to win. It has only been in recent years that I've used the plastic oversuit when racing in the rain - wet leathers are a bastard, however if it is bad for you, it is bad for everyone else . I love it, and the crashes are safer so I intentionally ride quicker than most others in the wet. HAVE FUN !
Commandos are really great bikes however you cannot expect them to be what they are not. My perfect dream is to get my Seeley 850 into a race against twenty other bikes with aircooled two valve four stroke engines of similar capacity. The playing field would be level and I would burn their arses. It doesn't matter what horsepower or weight your bike is as long as there is an invisible tow rope between you and the guy in front, and you have the opportunity to outride him. Even at 250 KPH, it is the relative speeds which are important. You need a power to weight ratio high enough to get you into the game. Commandos have a handling advantage in a lot of situations. There is no way an H2 Kawasaki two stroke with 80 BHP will beat a commando with 80 BHP and similar weight in a road race, especially in the wet.
If you race a commando - pray for rain if you want to win. It has only been in recent years that I've used the plastic oversuit when racing in the rain - wet leathers are a bastard, however if it is bad for you, it is bad for everyone else . I love it, and the crashes are safer so I intentionally ride quicker than most others in the wet. HAVE FUN !
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Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
I am going LED tail/brake/signal with my refit I am doing. Any good recommendations for headlights? Light n bright!
worntorn said:
I am going LED tail/brake/signal with my refit I am doing. Any good recommendations for headlights? Light n bright!
Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
I am going LED tail/brake/signal with my refit I am doing. Any good recommendations for headlights? Light n bright![/quote]
Last I looked it seemed like the LED headlights were not quite there yet, too expensive for one thing.
Thatvwas about a year ago, things may have changed.
Paul Goff has a really good site for this stuff, although I had the self adhesive split LED made by Signal Dynamics. It is four lights in one and is very bright, left and right turn, brake light and running light. You need a module that SD sells to accomplish this plus you need some sort of valence to mount the light on.
Glen
I am going LED tail/brake/signal with my refit I am doing. Any good recommendations for headlights? Light n bright![/quote]
Last I looked it seemed like the LED headlights were not quite there yet, too expensive for one thing.
Thatvwas about a year ago, things may have changed.
Paul Goff has a really good site for this stuff, although I had the self adhesive split LED made by Signal Dynamics. It is four lights in one and is very bright, left and right turn, brake light and running light. You need a module that SD sells to accomplish this plus you need some sort of valence to mount the light on.
Glen
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Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
This thread is too cluttered for such a serious subject as pecking order listing of our British bastardized Twiggy's. Ludwig you are an Olymphian in current real world Nortondom and ride Olympic height environs to get the most out of a handy lithe isolastic Commando. I"ll start a thread called Lightness is Rightness as been on my mine forever. I'm jockey weight Icabod, so like to combine myself in the total which is kind of cheating to post but actual flight fact. This would be a good pre-disscussion thread to break down categories besides total, like forks with every thing attached, wheel, brake controls lights. Rear end, swingarm, spindle, wheel brake etc, Frame, stands oil tank gas tank plumbing electrics, controls. Power unit, engine, mounts-links, gearbox, sprocket, drive chain, Or just item by item down to fasteners and spacers. I know I'll get Peel under 350, pretty sure <330, and almost sure <320, but not sure at all how much less I can afford on top of the heavier but bullet proof components their mass makes me ambivalent to pull trigger for. I think in non legal special event use might pair down below 300 with the 15 lb Drouin on but no charger, or plan to switch Drouin out for a carb and TTI tranny for my Qualfe shelled one. W/o the Drouin or fairing Peel don't need a cage protection for lots of lesions off the path fun and flings where weight matters more than big power on low traction. I kept tract of a number of engine items dealt with but other wise ain't got anything objective yet to put in a new thread and Ludwigs bike sets the bench mark limbo stick pretty freaking low!
This thread is too cluttered for such a serious subject as pecking order listing of our British bastardized Twiggy's. Ludwig you are an Olymphian in current real world Nortondom and ride Olympic height environs to get the most out of a handy lithe isolastic Commando. I"ll start a thread called Lightness is Rightness as been on my mine forever. I'm jockey weight Icabod, so like to combine myself in the total which is kind of cheating to post but actual flight fact. This would be a good pre-disscussion thread to break down categories besides total, like forks with every thing attached, wheel, brake controls lights. Rear end, swingarm, spindle, wheel brake etc, Frame, stands oil tank gas tank plumbing electrics, controls. Power unit, engine, mounts-links, gearbox, sprocket, drive chain, Or just item by item down to fasteners and spacers. I know I'll get Peel under 350, pretty sure <330, and almost sure <320, but not sure at all how much less I can afford on top of the heavier but bullet proof components their mass makes me ambivalent to pull trigger for. I think in non legal special event use might pair down below 300 with the 15 lb Drouin on but no charger, or plan to switch Drouin out for a carb and TTI tranny for my Qualfe shelled one. W/o the Drouin or fairing Peel don't need a cage protection for lots of lesions off the path fun and flings where weight matters more than big power on low traction. I kept tract of a number of engine items dealt with but other wise ain't got anything objective yet to put in a new thread and Ludwigs bike sets the bench mark limbo stick pretty freaking low!
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Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
I already have the tail light and indicators sorted, I would just like a better/brighter headlight. Any decent halogens since LED aren't ready for the night shift?
worntorn said:
I already have the tail light and indicators sorted, I would just like a better/brighter headlight. Any decent halogens since LED aren't ready for the night shift?
Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
Yes, Paul Goff has got a good selection.
http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/
Glen
Yes, Paul Goff has got a good selection.
http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/
Glen
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Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
Ahhh...excellent. I wish these were available in the mid eighties when I had my mk3!
will I need to change the reflector?
oh, I bet I will need to change the lens since I brought my bike from the US here to NZ, or are they universal dips?
Ahhh...excellent. I wish these were available in the mid eighties when I had my mk3!
will I need to change the reflector?
oh, I bet I will need to change the lens since I brought my bike from the US here to NZ, or are they universal dips?
Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
Hey Brent, not trying to be too particular here but just wondering about the accuracy of these weights because I'd compared an alloy swing arm/cradle assembly a local rider was selling to a stock one a while back and found there was about 1/3 weight savings. Your figures suggest about 1/2. The one I compared looked pretty much identical to a stock 750 set up much like your own.
My stock weights are:
swingarm - 7.08 lbs. (750)
Cradle - 9.7 lbs
Swingarm and cradle assembled weight - 19.5 lb (850 with sw spindle zipped up, chain adjusters,.) and rubber mnts
Nice work getting the weight down though. You,Jean and GP should have a contest to see who can build the 1st invisible Norton since all 3 of your bikes already have that big invisible MT area where the side covers normally are.
Also I'm curious about the plug-in oil tank, do you have any details of it in one of your threads?
bwolfie said:
Hey Brent, not trying to be too particular here but just wondering about the accuracy of these weights because I'd compared an alloy swing arm/cradle assembly a local rider was selling to a stock one a while back and found there was about 1/3 weight savings. Your figures suggest about 1/2. The one I compared looked pretty much identical to a stock 750 set up much like your own.
My stock weights are:
swingarm - 7.08 lbs. (750)
Cradle - 9.7 lbs
Swingarm and cradle assembled weight - 19.5 lb (850 with sw spindle zipped up, chain adjusters,.) and rubber mnts
Nice work getting the weight down though. You,Jean and GP should have a contest to see who can build the 1st invisible Norton since all 3 of your bikes already have that big invisible MT area where the side covers normally are.
Also I'm curious about the plug-in oil tank, do you have any details of it in one of your threads?
Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
The weights are correc for now. The next swingarm eill veva bit more.
As for the oil tank its in the works. I build on the fly and will post pictures when I have something. I have a huild thread going. Search now going custom....
The weights are correc for now. The next swingarm eill veva bit more.
As for the oil tank its in the works. I build on the fly and will post pictures when I have something. I have a huild thread going. Search now going custom....
grandpaul
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Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
It's easy to take the stock Commando late style oil tank and turn it transverse, lower in the frame with very little fuss. Lowers your CG just a touch.
Yes, the drain plug dribbles when you change the oil, but you can always plumb a remote drain cap.
...for those who like the "see-through" look.
It's easy to take the stock Commando late style oil tank and turn it transverse, lower in the frame with very little fuss. Lowers your CG just a touch.
Yes, the drain plug dribbles when you change the oil, but you can always plumb a remote drain cap.
...for those who like the "see-through" look.
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Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
Oh Ok that relieves me some as Peels posted wheel mass includes those but been awhile since weighed so no exact figures yet. Someday will list her final measures. Hm might of had hollow axles in.
Oh Ok that relieves me some as Peels posted wheel mass includes those but been awhile since weighed so no exact figures yet. Someday will list her final measures. Hm might of had hollow axles in.
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Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
Back to the OP, I get what he's saying. I've got bikes I've had years and years...and there were days in all those years when I questioned "what's the point". But it's short lived and the addiction takes back over again. If I only owned one motorcycle and it was only for pure transportation/commuting (and not pleasure/enjoyment) and I had no inclination to tinker/fettle, it would be a modern "push-button", most likely Asian bike. If I wanted a fast commuter, used sport bikes are a dime a dozen.
I, like many others here, lusted and still lust after bikes that were highly sought after "back in the day", but I was too young and too broke to own one off the showroom floor or within a few years of leaving the showroom floor. I still have a Triumph T120R that I was riding when I was a Jr. in high school...and it was 9 years old when I got it and I'll soon be eligible for a 40-year class reunion. It has seen 4 or 5 restorations over the years and many "warm-overs" in between. Financially, it makes no sense to normal people to spend $8k fixing up a $4k motorcycle...but it makes perfect sense to me. I grew up with that bike and it is a part of me. My other bikes in one way or another are a part of me.
I'm not hell bent on only owning old motorcycles but the ones I do have, I wouldn't part with them for love nor money. I am fixing to start a build project on a Norton that is going to be something I've never seen the likes of around here or any where for that matter. It's been on my bucket list for some time and I'm going to get on with it. It is going to make absolutely no sense (to most), be completely over the top to many and something most riders couldn't rationalize...but its for me so who cares what others think.
http://gl1800riders.com/forums/showthre ... of-the-bag
You can take life too serious...but not motorcycles.
Z
Back to the OP, I get what he's saying. I've got bikes I've had years and years...and there were days in all those years when I questioned "what's the point". But it's short lived and the addiction takes back over again. If I only owned one motorcycle and it was only for pure transportation/commuting (and not pleasure/enjoyment) and I had no inclination to tinker/fettle, it would be a modern "push-button", most likely Asian bike. If I wanted a fast commuter, used sport bikes are a dime a dozen.
I, like many others here, lusted and still lust after bikes that were highly sought after "back in the day", but I was too young and too broke to own one off the showroom floor or within a few years of leaving the showroom floor. I still have a Triumph T120R that I was riding when I was a Jr. in high school...and it was 9 years old when I got it and I'll soon be eligible for a 40-year class reunion. It has seen 4 or 5 restorations over the years and many "warm-overs" in between. Financially, it makes no sense to normal people to spend $8k fixing up a $4k motorcycle...but it makes perfect sense to me. I grew up with that bike and it is a part of me. My other bikes in one way or another are a part of me.
I'm not hell bent on only owning old motorcycles but the ones I do have, I wouldn't part with them for love nor money. I am fixing to start a build project on a Norton that is going to be something I've never seen the likes of around here or any where for that matter. It's been on my bucket list for some time and I'm going to get on with it. It is going to make absolutely no sense (to most), be completely over the top to many and something most riders couldn't rationalize...but its for me so who cares what others think.
http://gl1800riders.com/forums/showthre ... of-the-bag
You can take life too serious...but not motorcycles.
Z
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