I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrades
- Thread starter Larso1
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Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
"This is my own bike. Out of the four bikes , which one would you prefer to own if you were on a moderate budget ?
"
Hmm..can't say. Is the bike mechanic on the last pic the same guy that installed the blinds?
My impression (maybe wrong?) of the first post was that it was about engine performance mods, not mods like brakes/e-ignition, swing arm clamps, and the endless other mods that apply to alleged improvements. IOW, I took it as a question as in "why would you bother "hotrodding" a Norton motor when, at best, you MIGHT get the HP of a current 500 or smaller bike. If that was the question, I agree with it; it makes little sense to me as well. Sure, getting all the power the bike is expected to produce is a good thing but could it ever run with (accelerate, turn/stop) a current sport bike of ANY size? No way. So what is the point of adding 10HP? It just makes it a bit faster than a stock Commando and way behind a little Triumph Daytona and not even visible from the rear view mirror of any modern sport bike in the same displacement class if the riders are equal.
Certainly, several mods are excellent (IMO) for modern use - Front brake improvement being a noteworthy example. And there are plenty of mods that improve the reliability of various systems and those may be excellent. With a stock engine the Commando can quite easily hold it's own in today's traffic so it's not as if it needs more power to "survive" on the road. But OTOH, to me, an engine performance mod, though I appreciate the time/trouble and research that have gone into it, doesn't seem to me to be worthwhile pursuing - you still have a "slow" motorcycle by today's standards of motorcycle performance.
The above applies to a street bike. As noted in an earlier post...IF the conversation is about racing, that's a different deal.
"This is my own bike. Out of the four bikes , which one would you prefer to own if you were on a moderate budget ?
"
Hmm..can't say. Is the bike mechanic on the last pic the same guy that installed the blinds?
My impression (maybe wrong?) of the first post was that it was about engine performance mods, not mods like brakes/e-ignition, swing arm clamps, and the endless other mods that apply to alleged improvements. IOW, I took it as a question as in "why would you bother "hotrodding" a Norton motor when, at best, you MIGHT get the HP of a current 500 or smaller bike. If that was the question, I agree with it; it makes little sense to me as well. Sure, getting all the power the bike is expected to produce is a good thing but could it ever run with (accelerate, turn/stop) a current sport bike of ANY size? No way. So what is the point of adding 10HP? It just makes it a bit faster than a stock Commando and way behind a little Triumph Daytona and not even visible from the rear view mirror of any modern sport bike in the same displacement class if the riders are equal.
Certainly, several mods are excellent (IMO) for modern use - Front brake improvement being a noteworthy example. And there are plenty of mods that improve the reliability of various systems and those may be excellent. With a stock engine the Commando can quite easily hold it's own in today's traffic so it's not as if it needs more power to "survive" on the road. But OTOH, to me, an engine performance mod, though I appreciate the time/trouble and research that have gone into it, doesn't seem to me to be worthwhile pursuing - you still have a "slow" motorcycle by today's standards of motorcycle performance.
The above applies to a street bike. As noted in an earlier post...IF the conversation is about racing, that's a different deal.
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Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
Well, you can't buy a new one, so what else are you gonna do? And if you want to resolve (in your own mind anyway) the endless debate of 750 vs. 850, then you have to have one of each. Hence two restorations.
Debby
comnoz said:
Well, you can't buy a new one, so what else are you gonna do? And if you want to resolve (in your own mind anyway) the endless debate of 750 vs. 850, then you have to have one of each. Hence two restorations.
Debby
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Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
This thread has become somewhat confusing.
Where are all the Commando's with race cam shafts,FCR Keihins,high compression,FullAuto heads,5 or 6 speed transmissions etc etc.
Last time I looked that would be ? :lol:
This thread has become somewhat confusing.
Where are all the Commando's with race cam shafts,FCR Keihins,high compression,FullAuto heads,5 or 6 speed transmissions etc etc.
Last time I looked that would be ? :lol:
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Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
It's a bit of a no-brainer question. Performance upgrades makes the bike better. When the mods been carried out by yourself then the satisfaction when riding and noticing the improvement is massive. More smiles per mile!
It's a bit of a no-brainer question. Performance upgrades makes the bike better. When the mods been carried out by yourself then the satisfaction when riding and noticing the improvement is massive. More smiles per mile!
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Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
Hmmm...but there are external mods on that bike...doesn't follow what your saying.
My opinion is to make the bike safe and "modernize" for looks, safety and reliability while trying to keep the original Norton character. Not everyone's cup of tea...but it is mine. I love concourse original, modded, race, whatever the owner likes...they are all motorcycles and that's what really matters.
acotrel said:If the mods are internal, that is sort of OK however does not thrill me much.
Hmmm...but there are external mods on that bike...doesn't follow what your saying.
My opinion is to make the bike safe and "modernize" for looks, safety and reliability while trying to keep the original Norton character. Not everyone's cup of tea...but it is mine. I love concourse original, modded, race, whatever the owner likes...they are all motorcycles and that's what really matters.
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Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
"It's a bit of a no-brainer question. Performance upgrades makes the bike better."
IMO, some "performance upgrades" are actually performance downgrades. The most obvious example is the original Boyer ignition. There have been published advance curves here on the site and it is clearly inferior to the oem points/AAU because there is insufficient lead in the midrange - the most important part of the curve for street use. IOW, a stock commando will out-accelerate a Boyered Commando unless you have both machines at 5000 RPM and accelerate from there. If you start at normal rev range, the oem bike will out accelerate the Boyer and never look back back. However, the "UPGRADE" part of a Boyer, may, to many folks, be the fact that you never have to adjust anything. So is it an "Upgrade?" Depends on what's important the the user.
Increasing engine power does not make a machine "better" it just makes it more powerful, usually in the upper rev range. Normally when you do that, you lose tractibiliy so for street use, it's commonly not as good as the bike was stock. Other than forced induction, the only exception I can think of that provides a power increase across the board with NO downside is higher compression. Of course "No down side" assumes there is suitable gasoline and the crankcase parts can also accept the increased power. But in reality the actual gain per full point of compression is not all that much. For the Commando, a one point increase would give you maybe another 2HP.
Back when I was building performance/competition engines a 300 HP 9:1 motor would be about a 320 HP 11:1 motor with no change except compression. People tended to think high compression on its own made/makes large differences in power but going up a point or two isn't worth much other than bragging rights: "My Commando has sixty HP!" "Oh yeah? Well I installed hi compression pistons and MY Commando has sixty-TWO horsepower, neener, neener, neener!"
"It's a bit of a no-brainer question. Performance upgrades makes the bike better."
IMO, some "performance upgrades" are actually performance downgrades. The most obvious example is the original Boyer ignition. There have been published advance curves here on the site and it is clearly inferior to the oem points/AAU because there is insufficient lead in the midrange - the most important part of the curve for street use. IOW, a stock commando will out-accelerate a Boyered Commando unless you have both machines at 5000 RPM and accelerate from there. If you start at normal rev range, the oem bike will out accelerate the Boyer and never look back back. However, the "UPGRADE" part of a Boyer, may, to many folks, be the fact that you never have to adjust anything. So is it an "Upgrade?" Depends on what's important the the user.
Increasing engine power does not make a machine "better" it just makes it more powerful, usually in the upper rev range. Normally when you do that, you lose tractibiliy so for street use, it's commonly not as good as the bike was stock. Other than forced induction, the only exception I can think of that provides a power increase across the board with NO downside is higher compression. Of course "No down side" assumes there is suitable gasoline and the crankcase parts can also accept the increased power. But in reality the actual gain per full point of compression is not all that much. For the Commando, a one point increase would give you maybe another 2HP.
Back when I was building performance/competition engines a 300 HP 9:1 motor would be about a 320 HP 11:1 motor with no change except compression. People tended to think high compression on its own made/makes large differences in power but going up a point or two isn't worth much other than bragging rights: "My Commando has sixty HP!" "Oh yeah? Well I installed hi compression pistons and MY Commando has sixty-TWO horsepower, neener, neener, neener!"
Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
I didn't get the OP to be directed entirely at engine performance as it goes on to reference engine performance as an example following this initial statement:
and Bill, no offence intended as all our opinions are valued and this one has stimulated quite a discussion so far. I've taken it to mean any mods that are not stock restorations.
How many types of mods are there? What are the different categories of modifications?
1 - Weight Reducing (replacing components with stronger, lighter ones for e.g.. alloy trans cradles, alloy rims)
2 - Better Handling ( things like improved brake components, suspension etc.)
3 - Horse Power (Head work, cams etc.)
4 - Reliability (Electronic ignition etc., fuel efficiency, longevity of the component etc.)
5 - Cosmetics (things done just to enhance the appearance, custom paint, bling)
6 - Safety (signal lights, brighter headlight)
7 - Comfort (different handle bars or seat)
8 - General Improvement Over Original Design (Jim's crankcase breather mod, swing arm spindle dual MK III style mount)
Please add more categories.
Maybe there should be a category:
9 - I Was Bored and Did This For No Good Reason (I've read how engine designers are constantly battling the tendency for all parts that reciprocate or rotate to vibrate and these vibrations eventually take their toll on the performance of an engine. The obvious components that come to mind are the biggies, crank, rods and pistons but all such parts create vibrations. Lets look at the rocker arms. It's been pointed out here that on a stock long stroke engine there is little if any performance advantage to lightening your rocker arms. If you do this mod you're wasting time. So what. I still say these components are mass produced fairly roughly and if someone wants to grind some grams off them and polish them they can do so without weakening the part (if they are careful). No harm is done and they will have at least reduced some minute vibrations from their engines. True it may take 50 years before the rocker arm shaft retainer bolts vibrate their threads enough to require helicoils and the bolts may only have been prevented from coming loose 5 times because you lightened them but still no harm was done. I enjoy doing this stuff to my bike when it's off the road and when I'm riding down some quiet country road in the summer I love to listen to the sounds of the valve train purring it's tune.)
I didn't get the OP to be directed entirely at engine performance as it goes on to reference engine performance as an example following this initial statement:
Larso1 said:
and Bill, no offence intended as all our opinions are valued and this one has stimulated quite a discussion so far. I've taken it to mean any mods that are not stock restorations.
How many types of mods are there? What are the different categories of modifications?
1 - Weight Reducing (replacing components with stronger, lighter ones for e.g.. alloy trans cradles, alloy rims)
2 - Better Handling ( things like improved brake components, suspension etc.)
3 - Horse Power (Head work, cams etc.)
4 - Reliability (Electronic ignition etc., fuel efficiency, longevity of the component etc.)
5 - Cosmetics (things done just to enhance the appearance, custom paint, bling)
6 - Safety (signal lights, brighter headlight)
7 - Comfort (different handle bars or seat)
8 - General Improvement Over Original Design (Jim's crankcase breather mod, swing arm spindle dual MK III style mount)
Please add more categories.
Maybe there should be a category:
9 - I Was Bored and Did This For No Good Reason (I've read how engine designers are constantly battling the tendency for all parts that reciprocate or rotate to vibrate and these vibrations eventually take their toll on the performance of an engine. The obvious components that come to mind are the biggies, crank, rods and pistons but all such parts create vibrations. Lets look at the rocker arms. It's been pointed out here that on a stock long stroke engine there is little if any performance advantage to lightening your rocker arms. If you do this mod you're wasting time. So what. I still say these components are mass produced fairly roughly and if someone wants to grind some grams off them and polish them they can do so without weakening the part (if they are careful). No harm is done and they will have at least reduced some minute vibrations from their engines. True it may take 50 years before the rocker arm shaft retainer bolts vibrate their threads enough to require helicoils and the bolts may only have been prevented from coming loose 5 times because you lightened them but still no harm was done. I enjoy doing this stuff to my bike when it's off the road and when I'm riding down some quiet country road in the summer I love to listen to the sounds of the valve train purring it's tune.)
Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
And when you are balls to the wall climbing a mountain pass with some particularly boastful comrade hot on your heels, is that extra 2 hp ever nice. :wink: It might as well be 100 and the cost of the upgrade is long forgotten.
Ego, I know, but who is totally without one?
Glen
And when you are balls to the wall climbing a mountain pass with some particularly boastful comrade hot on your heels, is that extra 2 hp ever nice. :wink: It might as well be 100 and the cost of the upgrade is long forgotten.
Ego, I know, but who is totally without one?
Glen
Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
Wow! Went to bed last night after posting the third or fourth comment to this thread and now come back to a winding down of almost a full scale war. When nerves are hit, we sure do twitch. :lol: I think Larso1 was just commenting on some of the extreme mods for road bikes, not race bikes, I kind of think the same way, but....do I care if someone wants to mod the bejeesus out of a road going Commando?, not really, but I still may wonder what the point is. If we all had just stock out of the box Commando's however, and that's all the forum was about, that would be pretty boring, no? Point is, we all like the same machine and with that comes differences of opinion on how enjoy our ride in our own way. Shouldn't be "my way or the hi-way" here. As far as sub forums for just 850's, or just MK3's, or just 750's, etc,etc, give me a break!, THEY ARE ALL NORTONS :!:
Wow! Went to bed last night after posting the third or fourth comment to this thread and now come back to a winding down of almost a full scale war. When nerves are hit, we sure do twitch. :lol: I think Larso1 was just commenting on some of the extreme mods for road bikes, not race bikes, I kind of think the same way, but....do I care if someone wants to mod the bejeesus out of a road going Commando?, not really, but I still may wonder what the point is. If we all had just stock out of the box Commando's however, and that's all the forum was about, that would be pretty boring, no? Point is, we all like the same machine and with that comes differences of opinion on how enjoy our ride in our own way. Shouldn't be "my way or the hi-way" here. As far as sub forums for just 850's, or just MK3's, or just 750's, etc,etc, give me a break!, THEY ARE ALL NORTONS :!:
ashman
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Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
You can make your Norton fast and a lot more power without spending a big bucket of money, I have owned my Norton for 37 years and over that time have spent some money improving the handling, the performance and the stopping power which all works together, I did all these changes over time to make my Norton better, so I didn't spend the money in one big hit, I brought my 850 in 76 when I was young and silly (17 years old) I started to change my Norton in 79 for the better in my eyes.
The first thing I got was a 57 Wideline Featherbed frame (better handling) so in 1980 I started on my project, the motor was rebuilt for the Featherbed, balanced crank, SS cam grind, oversized pistons as flogged out the standard bore from to many burn outs when young and silly, head work to make it breath better, new Amals carbies, Koni shockies and Akront wheels, a lot of my old Commando gear went on this bike and a lot of gear didn't, this is how the bike is to this day after 33 years, but have done a major rebuild 4 years ago to improve it more.
Last rebuild 4 years ago this is what changed, motor rebuilt with the same SS cam regrounded, 40thu oversize pistons, clean up the head to breath even better,new PWK flatslide carbies, new Germica 12" floating disc and Master cylinder, a round alloy central oil tank and the best improvement ever was to put a Joe Hunt maggie, no more battery, this bike is so reliable in the 37 years it has never let me down, I only replace things that need it, it gets well maintained so in conclusion, the Norton handles great, stops perfect, performs great in the city as well when I need to open it up it has all the power I will ever need, I do this for the love of my Norton built for me the way I like it, its a real HOT ROD and it looks good.
Ashley
You can make your Norton fast and a lot more power without spending a big bucket of money, I have owned my Norton for 37 years and over that time have spent some money improving the handling, the performance and the stopping power which all works together, I did all these changes over time to make my Norton better, so I didn't spend the money in one big hit, I brought my 850 in 76 when I was young and silly (17 years old) I started to change my Norton in 79 for the better in my eyes.
The first thing I got was a 57 Wideline Featherbed frame (better handling) so in 1980 I started on my project, the motor was rebuilt for the Featherbed, balanced crank, SS cam grind, oversized pistons as flogged out the standard bore from to many burn outs when young and silly, head work to make it breath better, new Amals carbies, Koni shockies and Akront wheels, a lot of my old Commando gear went on this bike and a lot of gear didn't, this is how the bike is to this day after 33 years, but have done a major rebuild 4 years ago to improve it more.
Last rebuild 4 years ago this is what changed, motor rebuilt with the same SS cam regrounded, 40thu oversize pistons, clean up the head to breath even better,new PWK flatslide carbies, new Germica 12" floating disc and Master cylinder, a round alloy central oil tank and the best improvement ever was to put a Joe Hunt maggie, no more battery, this bike is so reliable in the 37 years it has never let me down, I only replace things that need it, it gets well maintained so in conclusion, the Norton handles great, stops perfect, performs great in the city as well when I need to open it up it has all the power I will ever need, I do this for the love of my Norton built for me the way I like it, its a real HOT ROD and it looks good.
Ashley
rvich
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Re: I just don't get the endless posts on performance upgrad
It would seem there are as many opinions about this as there are Norton owners. Wonder why there is so much discussion about performance mods? Just look at how much discussion there is about the discussion!
I don't have to give my wife any reason for what I do to my bike, why should I have to justify it here?!!!
It would seem there are as many opinions about this as there are Norton owners. Wonder why there is so much discussion about performance mods? Just look at how much discussion there is about the discussion!
I don't have to give my wife any reason for what I do to my bike, why should I have to justify it here?!!!
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