I have no oil flow

The only thing I really know well about this Norton I picked up a year or so back, is that it's something I don't want to hurt, or damage! Been running other bikes, just fired the Norton up (sadly) the first time this year. I have no oil circulating! Lots of pressure, oil flow is more like 'spittle', rather than the solid flow I remembered from when I bought it. Raed the book, read at least 50 posts... so as not to sound like I didn't try finding it on my own... can't figure this one out. A few posts talk about 'priming' the oil pump. So, ok, I'm going to admit it, guys: I am clueless, green, and wet behind the ears. Why am I getting lots of air pressure being thrown back into the oil tank, but not the oil? Does it need some weird priming, like an old fachioned pump? If so, how? Parked fine last December, now no oil circulation. What's up with this? Anyway, fired her up, ran her a minute or two, nothing. Having now fired her up, desperate to have some fun with her, but to scared to hit the road. I cannot imagine a pump completely dying between start ups? Any assistance, much appreciated. Oh, it's the 850cc.

How did you measure your oil pressure?

Had you drained the sump and checked the fluid level in the primary?

What was the level in the oil tank before starting?

Have you made any changes?

I have seen spittle and sputter of oil to the tank. If the sump was empty, it may take a bit for oil to circulate down into the sump to get flow goimg before you will notice good flow.

The tank was very low, not even getting a read. Saw it sloshing about below the stick. Added a little oil to the tank to be on the 'safe' side. I've read many posts about 'wet sumping'... many stated just fire her up and she'll circulate back to normal in a few seconds, so I took that route. Oil pressure? Only by looking at the return pipe into the tank. Like I said, lots of air pressure blowing (and sucking), but no solid flow like I remembered it as doing. And I simply cannot picture a mechanical pump dying totally in between two start ups... regardless of having been seven months? Although I could see that some oil drained through these last months (as you all told me it would), I honestly thought I could just start it up, and she'd circulate fine. As is, stumped, can't imagine why she wouldn't circulate oil with that heavy air pressure being pumped back into the tank??

I am sorry: belatedly, thanks so very much for your reply!

About only thing that could stifle the return to tank flow is if something, like a thrust washer tab got stuck in the drain hole or at sump pump intake. Only solid stream returns will be seen by the main secondary Combat breather hose while clearing the wet sump. Otherwise at rpms that don't spray out open oil cap, one will only see spittles splashing off the tank walls to expel air. Open cap and give'r er some blips if it don't make some mess outside then yes you've got blockage or oil pump inside troubles. Take oll feed line off of manifold to see if flows out well to eliminate tank side blockage like big dead bug body or a clot of cow web.

I just got my combat running yesterday, I have a spitting and sputtering of oil coming into the tank. I know I have good flow and pressure, it flows very well when I was kicking it thru while doing final assembly and oil priming.
I think I am going to join the camp of installing a pressure gauge. Then you know for sure it is working.

BTW Where in the Metro area are you, I am in Franklin.

Gary, I really think that you should drain and refreshen the system. This will tell you how much oil you actually had in the system.

Checking the primary is just to see if an amount found its way there by the crankseal. This is neither uncommon nor unexpected.

Franklin? Wow, I'm right next door in Greenfield, basically near south 27th and College ave. Believe I 'chatted' with you last year when some of the guys walked me through my gearbox issue? Hobot, thanks for your thought, I'll check it out as, truth be told, I had forgotten there was a screen in the bottom of the tank. At least, I think I remember that from reading about it, lol's. Bwolf: will try to send you my home phone. Kinda cool, you being so close. Hope you know EVERYTHING about Norton's :lol:

Gary said:

The tank was very low, not even getting a read. Saw it sloshing about below the stick. Added a little oil to the tank to be on the 'safe' side. I've read many posts about 'wet sumping'... many stated just fire her up and she'll circulate back to normal in a few seconds, so I took that route. Oil pressure? Only by looking at the return pipe into the tank. Like I said, lots of air pressure blowing (and sucking), but no solid flow like I remembered it as doing. And I simply cannot picture a mechanical pump dying totally in between two start ups... regardless of having been seven months? Although I could see that some oil drained through these last months (as you all told me it would), I honestly thought I could just start it up, and she'd circulate fine. As is, stumped, can't imagine why she wouldn't circulate oil with that heavy air pressure being pumped back into the tank??

I am sorry: belatedly, thanks so very much for your reply!

Click to expand...

OK, it seems the memory has faded a bit (yours). The oil return line is SUPPOSED to "spittle"... it's a DRY SUMP system, the scavenge pump is designed with more volume than the supply, to be sure and get all the oil out of the crankcase, and as such, it takes air as well as oil from the crankcase, thus the spittle. The only time it would have delivered a steady stream would have been if the crankcase was "wet sumped" and then only for a few minutes. As for the "lot's of air, blowing and sucking", again, AS DESIGNED, it's the crankcase vent doing the deed. The observations you describe are those of a properly operating system.

concours said:

The observations you describe are those of a properly operating system.

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I agree with you here concours. That make sense to me too.

I like you, Concours, Pviseriii, all of you guys! No freakin' clue who you guys are, but I like you. I am so damned glad to hear that this is 'normal', I can't express it.

So after I first bought it, watching the solid, steady stream of oil GUSHING into the return tank... then THAT would have been from the results of a wet sump?

***Now, mostly air, with oil 'dropplets', or 'spittle'... mostly AIR... that's the normal oil return?

If so, mega-thanks. Oh, did I mention I'm pretty green, wet behind the ears about this Norton? Well, I am learning, but wish I'd grown up with a gearhead Dad, you know? As is... man... you guys are great. Long fun run, tomorrow

After I got mine put all together and started it for the first time, I was watching the return and nothing was coming out of the line for about close to a minute. I shut it down, took off the left rocker feed line and started it and oil came gushing out. I knew there was pressure.
I hooked it all back up, started it again and shortly after I was getting oil in the tank but just spittle just you got. Perfect.
After it sits for a few days and I start it I will notice a steady stream out of the return pipe until it settles down to the spittle.
So your good to go so go ride that thing.
What oil and weight are you using?

I gotta get me a gauge too.

BTW, you did GOOD by being cautious, asking, verifying. You're way ahead of many operators. :mrgreen:

Gary-don't let Concours fool you! He learned all he knows by studying the Chicken Dance and listening to Frank Zappa late at night....... :lol: :lol:

But he learned it well!

concours said:

BTW, you did GOOD by being cautious, asking, verifying. You're way ahead of many operators. :mrgreen:

Click to expand...

+1

The most important part of this entire thread.

Before the case is closed on this, I would like to make sure that the breather hose is not being confused with the return oil. The breather has a pipe that sticks out horizontally into the oil tank opening and you may see some oil and air pushing out there, particularly on a wet sumped bike. The oil return is against the back wall of the tank and mine (I think most if not all) sprays the oil out on two sides of it. While I agree that the stream is not completely steady, I wouldn't describe it as spittle.

Here is a link to a video Swooshdave did that was really more about wet sumping and breather valves. But it shows oil returning to the tank via the breather hose, and if you watch it to the end it has a pretty good shot inside the tank where you can see what "normal" looks like. You actually have to watch in the video to see the oil returning into the tank because it is down low nearer the surface of the oil.

wetsumping-101-video-lesson-t10451.html?hilit=valve%20breather%20oil

While oil to the head is not an complete indication that the crank is getting its fair share, it helps. You can pull the oil line off the left side of the head. Rubber band a latex glove, a balloon, or maybe a condom (if that is what you have handy) over the end to capture the oil. When the bike starts, mine will fill two fingers of a latex glove in the time it takes me to verify the oil is getting there and shut down. Not very long.

Russ

Well, the old bike is so cool... I'm always scared to accidentally hurt her. That's why I am not embarrassed (i.e. she is more important). Russ, you are correct, I did mistake the oil return and breather. I'll look deeper after I fire her up, see if I have oil circulation. I am running Castrol 20w50, as the book suggests.

1.) should I not?
2.) can I easily find the thread about checking oil pressure, what kind of tool to use, etc? (hmm, seems like there could be an in-line pressure guage built for this, but what do I know).

Yes, in SwooshDave's video... it was what he referred to as the 'power pulses' return into the top of the tank, horizontal pipe near the cap, that I had mistaken for the oil return. Understanding this, rather obvious why I refused to run her out, what with only minute spittle for flow! God, that's actually pretty damned funny (now that I know). PLease feel free, guys, as I'm laughing, too! :wink:

Oil tank lines...

I took a photo of a 1972 oil tank connections so that everyone is using the same terms.

Sorry that I don't know how to put labels directly on the photo.

From left to right:
a) the left hose clamp connects the vent line from the oil tank and goes to a vented catch bottle or chain oiler arrangement
b) the middle hose clamp is the line from the crankcase breather and enters the tank at the filler neck; this line can 'sputter' oil or mist oil
c) the oil tank filler neck has the metal return oil line from the oil pump brazed to the inside of the tank; this is where you observe for oil flow
returning from the crankcase/oil pump

Please correct me if I'm in error.

Just so it's not left out, on the 69/70 central oil tank, the timed breather goes to the top hat spigot in this pic.



And the tank breather is internal to the tank and comes out in the air filter, here.



The oil return line goes in the smaller banjo above the larger feed line here,



and return oil can be seen by taking off the cap.

Dave
69S

I think part of the OP's observation of "spittle" is the HURRICANE force suck/blow of the original design breather which blows the oil all over the place as you're trying to observe it spurting from the holes in the tube. The XS650 reed valve tamed that bullshit fair and square.