Hard to Pull Clutch - Ideas? (2011)

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Hard to Pull Clutch - Ideas? (2011)
 
Life is good. . . that is until I read Matt's comment. . . Matt, you said the extra steel plate should be the first one in the pack. I didn't do this, rather I started with an internally splined friction plate and alternated the stack as per the manual for a regular clutch stack (doah!). Now that I think about it, it kind of makes sense, but what difference does it really make? Should I do it over?[/quote]

As easy as it is to get into a belt drive primary, I would take the time to re-install the clutch pack, using the 'extra' steel plate first and then the regular stack as normal. This will then end up being a friction plate against the pressure plate when you are finished.

I cant tell you if its going to make any difference that how you have it in there, but since Norvil recommends to start with the extra plate, I would just assume doing it this way.

Glad your clutch feels a lot better for you.

Matt / Colorado Norton Works
 
It nice to see all the blossoming clutch experts since I published my clutch article in 1997 :mrgreen:
And further incorporated into the INOA tech digest. Heck even old brits became a convert :lol:

Though not detailed explicitly in my article: http://atlanticgreen.com/ndnsclutch.htm

My later research on the clutch release actuator cams has shown a potential of 30% harder pull entirely due to differing clutch release cam profiles. This I discovered during the trouble shooting of a stiff clutch in a belt drive of QPD origin...The owner became satisfied with the lowered clutch release effort after receiving my help, since he was getting nowhere with QPD....
http://atlanticgreen.com/images/clutcharms-2.jpg




Dave
AGTS-Chassis Brake dyno services for air cooled motorcycles
 
You need to put a plain plate first into a "norvil" clutch because the screws will just chew up your friction plates otherwise!

Now if you'd gone for a quality item, like the Hemmings or Maney versions, you wouldn't have that problem :wink:
 
Does anyone have the current price on the Hemmings belt kit and if the gear ratio is changed? Does it come complete without having to buy extra clutch plates, etc.??

Dave
69S
 
kraakevik said:
DynoDave

So grinding off the curve as shown on the Commando actuator will provide a mechanical advantage similar to that of the Atlas component?


Tim Kraakevik
kraakevik@voyager.net
Click to expand...

Tim
profile #2 ... IS... an atlas arm, the #2 blue trace is the commando profile for comparison.

profile #3 is a lever I modified into an atlas. Blue trace #3 is where it started before modification...this is the one originally that was at about a 30% disadvantage over a more typical commando release lever. total total transformation :mrgreen:

#4 was some guys attempt at something ??????
 
dynodave said:
kraakevik said:
DynoDave

So grinding off the curve as shown on the Commando actuator will provide a mechanical advantage similar to that of the Atlas component?


Tim Kraakevik
kraakevik@voyager.net
Click to expand...

Tim
profile #2 ... IS... an atlas arm, the #2 blue trace is the commando profile for comparison.

profile #3 is a lever I modified into an atlas. Blue trace #3 is where it started before modification...this is the one originally that was at about a 30% disadvantage over a more typical commando release lever. total total transformation :mrgreen:

#4 was some guys attempt at something ??????
Click to expand...

http://atlanticgreen.com/ndnsclutch.htm

While this is used with success, it shouldn't be necessary on a properly maintained and assembled commando.
Click to expand...

Setting up a clutch should be easy with the plethora of information out there both on this forum, other forums, Tech Digest, Dave's site, etc.
 
Seeley920 said:
You need to put a plain plate first into a "norvil" clutch because the screws will just chew up your friction plates otherwise!

Now if you'd gone for a quality item, like the Hemmings or Maney versions, you wouldn't have that problem :wink:
Click to expand...


This is not the case. The screws are countersunk with a taper and even if you ran a friction plate against it as opposed to a plain steel, you would not see any unusual wear. Maybe you are talking about an older version, but I have used the Norvil one for a very long time and dont feel that its substandard in any way. Your personal experience may be different.

Matt / Colorado Norton Works
 
CNW said:
Seeley920 said:
You need to put a plain plate first into a "norvil" clutch because the screws will just chew up your friction plates otherwise!

Now if you'd gone for a quality item, like the Hemmings or Maney versions, you wouldn't have that problem :wink:
Click to expand...


This is not the case. The screws are countersunk with a taper and even if you ran a friction plate against it as opposed to a plain steel, you would not see any unusual wear. Maybe you are talking about an older version, but I have used the Norvil one for a very long time and dont feel that its substandard in any way. Your personal experience may be different.

Matt / Colorado Norton Works
Click to expand...

Yes, the screws on mine were countersunk, but it tore the inner fibre plate to pieces. I put a steel plate in first, machined the pressure plate to compensate and it worked til the lack of anodising wore the teeth on the front pulley and tore belts to pieces after 5 miles! I bought a Maney clutch and never looked back
 
Seeley920 said:
CNW said:
Seeley920 said:
You need to put a plain plate first into a "norvil" clutch because the screws will just chew up your friction plates otherwise!

Now if you'd gone for a quality item, like the Hemmings or Maney versions, you wouldn't have that problem :wink:
Click to expand...


This is not the case. The screws are countersunk with a taper and even if you ran a friction plate against it as opposed to a plain steel, you would not see any unusual wear. Maybe you are talking about an older version, but I have used the Norvil one for a very long time and dont feel that its substandard in any way. Your personal experience may be different.

Matt / Colorado Norton Works
Click to expand...

Yes, the screws on mine were countersunk, but it tore the inner fibre plate to pieces. I put a steel plate in first, machined the pressure plate to compensate and it worked til the lack of anodising wore the teeth on the front pulley and tore belts to pieces after 5 miles! I bought a Maney clutch and never looked back
Click to expand...

Then you obviously have a different experience. Not sure why you would have to turn the pressure plate down as a stock clutch stack plus an extra steel plate will fit right in (850 stack plus pressure plate).

What you experienced with the Norvil belt drive (Just to be clear, I have nothing to gain from promoting them since I dont sell them....but its one I use in all of our pre MKIII builds as standard) certainly sounds a bit unusual. If what happened to you happened to me I would not have anything good to say either but I have used them for 10 plus years and have never seen anything like what you describe.

Matt / Colorado Norton Works
 
Seeley920 said:
Yes, the screws on mine were countersunk, but it tore the inner fibre plate to pieces. I put a steel plate in first, machined the pressure plate to compensate and it worked til the lack of anodising wore the teeth on the front pulley and tore belts to pieces after 5 miles! I bought a Maney clutch and never looked back
Click to expand...

That almost sounds like the belt was too tight. I'm not a metallurgist but it doesn't seem that anodizing would have had an effect on the belt.

If the screws were countersunk one would assume that it would act just like holes in a brake disk, no detrimental effects. Interesting.
 
swooshdave said:
Seeley920 said:
Yes, the screws on mine were countersunk, but it tore the inner fibre plate to pieces. I put a steel plate in first, machined the pressure plate to compensate and it worked til the lack of anodising wore the teeth on the front pulley and tore belts to pieces after 5 miles! I bought a Maney clutch and never looked back
Click to expand...

That almost sounds like the belt was too tight. I'm not a metallurgist but it doesn't seem that anodizing would have had an effect on the belt.

If the screws were countersunk one would assume that it would act just like holes in a brake disk, no detrimental effects. Interesting.
Click to expand...

No the belt wasn't too tight....trust me! it was set up exactly as per "norvils" specs.

anodising (or not!) makes a hell of a difference when the pulley is worn so that the teeth are not rounded,, but sharp like a knife....3 laps every time and the belt had no teeth.

Like I said, replaced with a Maney one which has been there for 8 years and has never given any problems....and I don't pussyfoot around looking at the scenery!
 
For what it's worth, I redid the clutch this morning. That inner friction plate had about 30 miles of stop and go test riding and it didn't have a mark on it! Like Matt said, the screws are recessed and had absolutely no effect on the plate.

Bottom line is, this clutch job is the best thing I've done to my bike! I can actually pull the clutch with one finger, and the action is sweat compared to the previous sintered bronze plates I had.

My thanks again to Matt and Gary at Colorado Norton Works for answering all my questions. If any of you are ever traveling through southern Colorado, you owe it to yourself to stop by and check out the shop. It's a real showplace!
 
dynodave said:
kraakevik said:
DynoDave

So grinding off the curve as shown on the Commando actuator will provide a mechanical advantage similar to that of the Atlas component?


Tim Kraakevik
kraakevik@voyager.net
Click to expand...

Tim
profile #2 ... IS... an atlas arm, the #2 blue trace is the commando profile for comparison.

profile #3 is a lever I modified into an atlas. Blue trace #3 is where it started before modification...this is the one originally that was at about a 30% disadvantage over a more typical commando release lever. total total transformation :mrgreen:

#4 was some guys attempt at something ??????
Click to expand...

Im not following this, so how should we modify this component? Or shouldnt it be modified?
 
lcgtr said:
dynodave said:
kraakevik said:
DynoDave

So grinding off the curve as shown on the Commando actuator will provide a mechanical advantage similar to that of the Atlas component?


Tim Kraakevik
kraakevik@voyager.net
Click to expand...

Tim
profile #2 ... IS... an atlas arm, the #2 blue trace is the commando profile for comparison.

profile #3 is a lever I modified into an atlas. Blue trace #3 is where it started before modification...this is the one originally that was at about a 30% disadvantage over a more typical commando release lever. total total transformation :mrgreen:

#4 was some guys attempt at something ??????
Click to expand...

Im not following this, so how should we modify this component? Or shouldnt it be modified?
Click to expand...

The ramp picture, that came out of context from my commando clutch article, is only to visually aid the other concepts I explain in the article.
My articles are NOT DIY guides, and if you don't know exactically what you are doing than it would be foolishly dangerous to modify any component.

For example....cam pix #4 has the potenetial to release the clutch and then stay disengaged until you pull the inspection cap off and force the release lever back to the engaged position. How safe is that while over taking a tractor trailer on a B road?
 
I understand its not a DIY article and I have previously read the article
http://atlanticgreen.com/ndnsclutch.htm
Thats how I came across this topic but thats while Im not understanding it, Im asking for more information the DIY part,
DIY is why were all here isnt it? This post for sure is all about fixing the problem yourself
 
Hard to Pull Clutch - Ideas? (2011)


A series of concepts that If you can grasp will have you understand what you are DIYing.
These are IMO non standard cams.

The release cam looks like a rabbit....

The center of cam rotation is the center of the 1/2"ball at the end of the push rod. It rides in the belly of the rabbit.
Cam rotation is due to the cable pulling the lever ((rabbit's ears)) attached to the cam.
The non standard action consists of the center of cam rotation (ball bearing ) sliding down the clutch op body 040059 and causing clutch release action by pushing the push rod...A more typical configuration the center of the cam would be stationary.

The cam follower 040060 is the roller on the end of the clutch op body 040059.
The cam follower rides down the back of the rabbit shapped cam profile. With the clutch disengaged the roll sits up at the neck of the rabbit.

By changing the cam profile the Mechanical Advantage is greater though the amount of movement is decreased.

Hard to Pull Clutch - Ideas? (2011)


The atlas profile yields 50% more MA... but only 66% travel ........Claims of inadequate travel for the commando diphragm are entirely from the uninformed/uneducated.
Instead of trying to modify a commando release arm you could buy an atlas one instead.
 
dynodave said:
Hard to Pull Clutch - Ideas? (2011)


A series of concepts that If you can grasp will have you understand what you are DIYing.
These are IMO non standard cams.

The release cam looks like a rabbit....

The center of cam rotation is the center of the 1/2"ball at the end of the push rod. It rides in the belly of the rabbit.
Cam rotation is due to the cable pulling the lever ((rabbit's ears)) attached to the cam.
The non standard action consists of the center of cam rotation (ball bearing ) sliding down the clutch op body 040059 and causing clutch release action by pushing the push rod...A more typical configuration the center of the cam would be stationary.

The cam follower 040060 is the roller on the end of the clutch op body 040059.
The cam follower rides down the back of the rabbit shapped cam profile. With the clutch disengaged the roll sits up at the neck of the rabbit.

By changing the cam profile the Mechanical Advantage is greater though the amount of movement is decreased.

Hard to Pull Clutch - Ideas? (2011)


The atlas profile yields 50% more MA... but only 66% travel ........Claims of inadequate travel for the commando diphragm are entirely from the uninformed/uneducated.
Instead of trying to modify a commando release arm you could buy an atlas one instead.
Click to expand...

Because the images didn't show up for me in the original post.
 
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