Handling with 18" rear wheels.

phil yates · Apr 10, 2014

Back in the 70s I helped Mike Hailwood have a ride at Winton Motor Raceway with the Manx owned by the Dunsters from Canberra. I didn't expect to see anything spectacular. What impressed me the most was the way he tucked into the bike and was super smooth. In those days we had just got gumball tyres, and the guys were letting it all hang out. The difference with Hailwood was extremely noticeable. About Ron Toombs, I watched him race many times with the Henderson Matchless and the Kawasakis. I was talking to him a few minutes before he was killed at Bathurst, he wasn't so much the super smooth rider, just relaxed and competent. I've seen him win the three major races at meetings in the one day. I once watched him run off at the hay shed near Lukey Heights on Phillip Island at very high speed and kept it all wicked up even while he was off the bitumen. He was exceptional, yet went nowhere until he was over forty years old. Turn one at Phillip Island backs a lot of guys off, myself included. Ron never backed off going around there. Ron was exceptional, however I believe Hailwood was a small step higher[/quote][/quote]

Oops, pressed the wrong button and created previous post with nothing, sorry about that.
I was trying to blow the joint up >)

Yes it was a great shame to lose Ron, and Mike for that matter.
Dad used to take us out to Bathurst at Easter and it was the only place I saw Ron race. No body got off the seat for cornering in those days, not that I can remember. When I first saw the technique some years later, I puzzled at the whole concept. Looks awfully odd to me hangin' out the side like you were on an outrigger! Or a hobbie cat. But I am not a racer, I guess it must work.

I have concluded from the comments in here that the 18" wheel fitted to my MkIII is for no reason other that tyre choice. I wasn't going to change it either way, I'm perfectly happy with the set up. Baxter's will be building another MkIII for me later this year, identical to mine. Only difference - BRG instead of red. As I mentioned, you can't be seen on the same coloured one everyday. I stopped short of telling Jen you can't be seen with the same girlfriend on the back everyday either

I'm stupid, but I'm not that stupid!!

Thanks for the input so far guys, regarding my query anyway. None of you made any sense at all but it was fun to read it

Hobot · Apr 10, 2014

I have some history with Baxter's city of Cycles and Rich Stone that does some of Baxter's restored bikes for sale. I didn't have life time on cycles so it got compressed harshly on TH Grit and scares on hwys trying various styles on various cycels. Near limits of tracion and forks and frame tolerance and power band every pilot has a different way of doing it. Its less scary to be hanging off with knee down as it allows less lean to keep from flying a hi side. Some times animals or tractors push me to very edge of ~foot high Gravel berms before the drop into drainage ditch on outside rim of off sloped sweeter 30-40 mph and not way can add any more fork coutner steer or front sliip off crest to off side marbles and cn kick rear out-around any or would end up flat tracker crossed up trying not spin out-down into the drink. I innatel hang way TF away from the horror side barely adding some fork counter steer as slowing on throttle BUT NOT enought to casue rear to losse grip into the drink so gradually eases onto normal level ish surface heart and breath working hard thinking I'm too stupid inattentive lack of skill and sense to be allowed on two wheels or even 4 at times.

Factory Cdo's with center stand and forward foot pegs are foul limited more than traction limited but with rear sets can you foul the factory up-swept peashooters. You can lean a bike further over than it really needs to to prevent fly ups but if ya do and not fast enough it can pogo off a peg and sling rear out and around w/o hardly trying. When a cycle does turn into a bucking bronco ya tend to hang of close and tight to have leverage to fight it out. This state is one the most horrific interesting to me with the mental conflicted fast decision to fight it out knowing if wrong the crash will be rather worse than just giving up and bailing off when ya can. Ugh. So far I've won more fights than lost and the ones I lost were nothing to do with turns but everything to do with sudden weave>wbble>tank slapp>SPLAT. After the 1st have dozen 5-10 mph take downs slowing for Gravel turns I learned my trail brake lesion while trying to be safe as could not testing anything in me or bike, SPATTTT-Crunch, SPLATTTCrackle,Snap SPLATT Crush/Tear.

We have heard eons of tales that when in doubt NAIL IT. I've found the wisdoms in that but only up to a point of no return, so best wishes enjoying all ya can get away with out there in never never land.

On Peel I could get so low all the force was straight through spine into rear axle so didn't feet different than upright to stay in saddle centered and stuck so securely often would speed up from hiway cruise then let speed bleed in straights to sane level. At some point fouling prevents further lean and fork turning which can limit turning sharper as radius decreases so innately occurs to ya to help rear around to straight out the turn more and hope to heaven you didn't over spin nor forget how long off power to hook up again in time. This puts a bit of whip lash through bike and pilot, similar to telling wife her sister was better doing it rodeo style. ...

phil yates · Apr 10, 2014

hobot said:
I have some history with Baxter's city of Cycles and Rich Stone that does some of Baxter's restored bikes for sale. I didn't have life time on cycles so it got compressed harshly on TH Grit and scares on hwys trying various styles on various cycels. Near limits of tracion and forks and frame tolerance and power band every pilot has a different way of doing it. Its less scary to be hanging off with knee down as it allows less lean to keep from flying a hi side. Some times animals or tractors push me to very edge of ~foot high Gravel berms before the drop into drainage ditch on outside rim of off sloped sweeter 30-40 mph and not way can add any more fork coutner steer or front sliip off crest to off side marbles and cn kick rear out-around any or would end up flat tracker crossed up trying not spin out-down into the drink. I innatel hang way TF away from the horror side barely adding some fork counter steer as slowing on throttle BUT NOT enought to casue rear to losse grip into the drink so gradually eases onto normal level ish surface heart and breath working hard thinking I'm too stupid inattentive lack of skill and sense to be allowed on two wheels or even 4 at times.

Factory Cdo's with center stand and forward foot pegs are foul limited more than traction limited but with rear sets can you foul the factory up-swept peashooters. You can lean a bike further over than it really needs to to prevent fly ups but if ya do and not fast enough it can pogo off a peg and sling rear out and around w/o hardly trying. When a cycle does turn into a bucking bronco ya tend to hang of close and tight to have leverage to fight it out. This state is one the most horrific interesting to me with the mental conflicted fast decision to fight it out knowing if wrong the crash will be rather worse than just giving up and bailing off when ya can. Ugh. So far I've won more fights than lost and the ones I lost were nothing to do with turns but everything to do with sudden weave>wbble>tank slapp>SPLAT. After the 1st have dozen 5-10 mph take downs slowing for Gravel turns I learned my trail brake lesion while trying to be safe as could not testing anything in me or bike, SPATTTT-Crunch, SPLATTTCrackle,Snap SPLATT Crush/Tear.

We have heard eons of tales that when in doubt NAIL IT. I've found the wisdoms in that but only up to a point of no return, so best wishes enjoying all ya can get away with out there in never never land.

On Peel I could get so low all the force was straight through spine into rear axle so didn't feet different than upright to stay in saddle centered and stuck so securely often would speed up from hiway cruise then let speed bleed in straights to sane level. At some point fouling prevents further lean and fork turning which can limit turning sharper as radius decreases so innately occurs to ya to help rear around to straight out the turn more and hope to heaven you didn't over spin nor forget how long off power to hook up again in time. This puts a bit of whip lash through bike and pilot, similar to telling wife her sister was better doing it rodeo style. ...

Have you mentioned any of this to your psychiatrist?

Sounds to me like your 18" rear wheel has been less than successful.

acotrel · Apr 10, 2014

I've often wondered about angle of lean in corners. I don't ever consciously lean the bike, it just seems to happen. Obviously the better your tyres and suspension are, the more lean you can safely use, and theoretically go faster around corners. I suspect it doesn't necessarily happen that way. I've found that shinny tyres with good compound are usually quite adequate, and fitting larger section tyres makes the handling sluggish. I have never seen movie of myself riding around a corner, however I suspect the top part of my body leans inwards while the bike is as upright as possible. The photo in the avatar to the right of this post, was taken when my 500cc Triton still had 19 inch wheels and hard tyres, however the surface was dangerous non-skid and you could really get down to racing properly. The circuit was at Mount Gambier in South Australia, you always tried to make very sure that you did not crash there.

These are interesting :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J73XRDGPcpE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOlDGxTN9vI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY9VPjF46Gc

Hobot · Apr 10, 2014

Phil you are definitely a Commando character lover but not up to speed to be risking or critiquing levels Alan and I are into. Size don't match like it does in sex organs or bores as patch width is very similar on a ~1.5" of 100 to ~2" of 190 size tire with similar PSI and bike mass on them and essentially identical traction too.

When turned at speed the difference in wide is even less. The big difference is wide tires can shift the heat loads around more so they don't get as melting hot loose as fast as skinny tires but by golly the skinny edges are so much more fun to me. Ya don't have to lean nearly as low down on grass or Gravel or snow to get into rear steering only so a sliding scale of what works best when. As a brain/spine injured toddler I'd get off on the G force felt on a swing set, so that's imprinted in me to keep seeking for relief. The very best traction is gotten within the 10% slippage zone which is also in the sonic hearing zone of tires and pilot screams if getting into the 11+% slippage zone. I divide up handling into 5 phases, the last 4 have howl, squeal, chirp and scream sounds associated with them. Peel's rear will have laser IR temp sensor with remote bar display and humidity barometer guage too.

phil yates · Apr 10, 2014

hobot said:
Phil you are definitely a Commando character lover but not up to speed to be risking or critiquing levels Alan and I are into. Size don't match like it does in sex organs or bores as patch width is very similar on a ~1.5" of 100 to ~2" of 190 size tire with similar PSI and bike mass on them and essentially identical traction too.

When turned at speed the difference in wide is even less. The big difference is wide tires can shift the heat loads around more so they don't get as melting hot loose as fast as skinny tires but by golly the skinny edges are so much more fun to me. Ya don't have to lean nearly as low down on grass or Gravel or snow to get into rear steering only so a sliding scale of what works best when. As a brain/spine injured toddler I'd get off on the G force felt on a swing set, so that's imprinted in me to keep seeking for relief. The very best traction is gotten within the 10% slippage zone which is also in the sonic hearing zone of tires and pilot screams if getting into the 11+% slippage zone. I divide up handling into 5 phases, the last 4 have howl, squeal, chirp and scream sounds associated with them. Peel's rear will have laser IR temp sensor with remote bar display and humidity barometer guage too.

Well I nearly understood all of that.Either I'm deteriorating, or you're improving. Or both

I'm not sure who Alan is.
I hope not your version of my Jenny? But each to his own.

No I am not up to speed with you or Alan (be whoever he is) and don't intend to be. I've only ever had a few goes around a race track and didn't actually enjoy it that much anyway. I got bored going round in circles. Just me.

I like cruising around the country side with the odd blap past a car here and there. I aso do all my shopping using the Commando, and I like that too. I don't do stupid things on public roads. Not saying I didn't once, some very stupid and dangerous things. But not anymore.

Hobot · Apr 10, 2014

Alrighty that was darn uplifing rational to read phil. We all have to ride like you describe or be injured jailed or dead in short order. I try to live on my Combats for the fantasy escapes on errands with some run ups here and there where nothing to risk. For me on ordinary wonderful Command that's got good front brake I like 110 on both ends 18 or 19 rim with two-3 PSI less in front almost regardless of rear PSI depending on load and surfaces. When ya get the fr/rr right the steering becomes the most easy natural for the current tire combo and condition. A bit of a sliding scale to pay attention too in la la land. If I was dispatched for money I'd fit 120 rear for a bit more mileage and dual tread pattern exploring parks and some Steve Mcquin on grass. Too rough jars the snot out of Cdo's but uncannty smooth secure off road over all to me and Wesley. Living on a cycle means wet times the dual tread feels more secure even if nothing is when wet. The cheapest tires Wes and I can find work a treat so we don't worry as much on using em up on legal-ish joy rides. We tend to fall off on mud of course regardless of tires fitted.

phil yates · Apr 10, 2014

hobot said:
Alrighty that was darn uplifing rational to read phil. We all have to ride like you describe or be injured jailed or dead in short order. I try to live on my Combats for the fantasy escapes on errands with some run ups here and there where nothing to risk. For me on ordinary wonderful Command that's got good front brake I like 110 on both ends 18 or 19 rim with two-3 PSI less in front almost regardless of rear PSI depending on load and surfaces. When ya get the fr/rr right the steering becomes the most easy natural for the current tire combo and condition. A bit of a sliding scale to pay attention too in la la land. If I was dispatched for money I'd fit 120 rear for a bit more mileage and dual tread pattern exploring parks and some Steve Mcquin on grass. Too rough jars the snot out of Cdo's but uncannty smooth secure off road over all to me and Wesley. Living on a cycle means wet times the dual tread feels more secure even if nothing is when wet. The cheapest tires Wes and I can find work a treat so we don't worry as much on using em up on legal-ish joy rides. We tend to fall off on mud of course regardless of tires fitted.

Go for it bucko. I don't need the challenge. I have too many other things to do rather than kill or maim myself doing stupid things on a motorcycle. But certainly, please don't let me stop you. I was interested in the fitting of an 18" rear rim more from an academic point of view. Hope I don't see any flowers on the side of the road with "Hobot" on them.

Handling with 18" rear wheels.

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