General Bike Theory/Purchasing Questions

Ron L · Dec 7, 2006

"Would you recommend then not spending a lot on the bike and opting for something in need of restoration? Or are you merely suggesting that in the school of hard knocks, no matter what you pay for the bike, it may, in the end, need to be stripped down and rebuilt."

You need to find the happy medium. I built a '68 Fastback starting with only a set of cases and a frame. That's a pretty formidable undertaking if I do say so myself. Not recommended for a first time experience with a Norton. I also bought a MkIII roadster that had "just been rebuilt by Norton specialist". This bike had a loose valve guide and a piston that looked like someone had pecked on it with a hammer.

Unless you know the seller and the bike personally be very skeptical. You will enjoy the bike more with the confidence that you know it is in good mechanical shape. The only way to achieve this is to trust the person you bought it from or do it yourself. How much money to spend is an issue only you can decide. A CNW rebuild will cost you $21K plus the bike. Your rebuild cost will hopefully be somewhat less depending on what you decide you want. Chose where you want to go with it, then choose the bike. You don't want to buy some one's cafe racer if you want to build a long distance Interstate tourer. Nor do you want to buy someone's original restoration to build a custom.

kevster™ · Dec 7, 2006

MichaelB said:
There were 5 versions of the 750 and 3 versions of the 850.
The 850 goes like this, 73 Mk I, 74 Mk II, 75 and beyond Mk III.
The Mark III is the E-start. Like the article said, they are basically 75's but they were produced all the way to 79.
I thought it interesting about all the post 75 being Silver Interstates and being offered only in Erope. That's why we don't see many over here.

The Combat is a Mk IV 750, the Mk V is the post Combat or 73 750 with the better bearings, stock cam and most of em have High compression heads.

Before Kenny started the 'New" Norton company, he was building, uh basically remanufacturing old Nortons with modern day stuff. He built approx. 43 of em before he started the new venture.
BTW, he refunded the deposits.

Thanks for the information on the Mks.... interesting. And helpful. I'd heard that Mr. Dreer refunded all the deposits, and knew he was a legendary Norton rebuilder (he always seemed like a stand-up sort of guy in the interviews I read of him). I was just curious as to what he did with the bikes, but that's another thread (and I'm sure I can find the information online.

Per usual, appreciate the help here Michael.

kevin

kevster™ · Dec 7, 2006

CommandoRoadster said:
If you are going to leave it original, go for the low mileage example, and fix problems as they occur. If, however you are going to modify it(which it sounds like you are), go for the higher mileage model. It
likely already has some of the mods/improvements that you would otherwise have to do. But, like someone above wrote, it's hard to tell if those mods were done correctly, or horribly bodged, so be prepared to strip it down. This goes for the low mileage original as well.

Yes, I'm sure it's just about always a gamble to some degree, whatever claims the seller may be making (rightfully or not).

I wouldn't buy that HiRider if it were me. After all, you are going to convert to Roadster specs. Those HiRiders are (thankfully!) rare, and should be left for someone who just has to have one.

In fact, I was the high bidder on a bike today on Ebay, so, go figure, I am now the proud owner of a 750 Roadster(!). Can't believe it. Not sure if there is a place to post pictures of bikes here (I'll check), but it's gorgeous to my eye. It's a higher mileage, several owner bike, but apparently was the project of a Canadian bike mechanic specializing in Norton/British bikes. The present owner bought the bike from said mechanic, and has all maintence on it performed by the professional mechanic. And I bought the bike at a decent price (the guy lowered the reserve so it went cheaper than he had originally intended). So it appears, at least on paper, that we are underway here. For better or worse!

You said you like the idea of a 750. By all means go for it!

Done!

Left side shift? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that Duck a right side shift? I know the only Ducati I ever owned( a 450 bevel Desmo,wish I still had it!) was up for low, on the right.

Yeah, Ducs a right-side shifter. I better get used to it....

Whatever, just get a Commando. You will never be sorry.

Just what I need to hear right now. Actually, I'm stoked!

The Commando as it came from the factory is already a hotrod,and is really kind of on the ragged edge between power, and reliability.Very many further modifications push it over that edge, so be prudent.

Won't be doing anything crazy. My main goal is to initially make sure the bike can get from point A to point B without making calls on the cell to the tow truck. After that I'll probably invest in an updated stator/rotor, and will consider the belt primary procedure as well. Lots to do!

Thanks CommandoRoadster!

kevin

kevster™ · Dec 7, 2006

Ron L said:
I also bought a MkIII roadster that had "just been rebuilt by Norton specialist". This bike had a loose valve guide and a piston that looked like someone had pecked on it with a hammer.

Uh-oh... Let's hope that doesn't happen here(!).

Unless you know the seller and the bike personally be very skeptical. You will enjoy the bike more with the confidence that you know it is in good mechanical shape. The only way to achieve this is to trust the person you bought it from or do it yourself. How much money to spend is an issue only you can decide.

As much as I could via Ebay, I got to know the seller of the bike (talked on the phone and willingly revealed all he knew about the bike. Very upfront and when he didn't know something he said so, instead of trying to fake his way through it like a lot of sellers. I also got the bike relatively cheap compared to a higher-end restored model, so I figure I have some "play" on how it all turns out. I know this was taking a chance, but I was willing to take it in this case.

A CNW rebuild will cost you $21K plus the bike. Your rebuild cost will hopefully be somewhat less depending on what you decide you want. Chose where you want to go with it, then choose the bike. You don't want to buy some one's cafe racer if you want to build a long distance Interstate tourer. Nor do you want to buy someone's original restoration to build a custom.

Great advice, and I think I followed it almost to a "T". I landed a bike somewhere between both extremes with some wiggle room to work on it and not feel cheated. In fact, the posts you guys have left over the past few days were instrumental in helping me with my choice.

Thanks, Ron.

kevin

CommandoRoadster · Dec 7, 2006

KEVSTER- Right now you are getting a standing ovation from all on this forum! Congradulations.

Ron L · Dec 8, 2006

Congratulations, Kevster!
Welcome to the fold. One warning. It's contagious. I bought my roadster new, wanted a hotrod, so I built one, but kept the roadster. Then I wanted a "sport-tourer", so I built the Interstate. The fastback styling I hated when I was 18 sort of grew on me in the '90's so I built that one. They are all Commandos, but are all different.

What year roadster did you find? There are four different frames for the 750, but only the very early '68 is a problem. The '71 has a side stand issue, but that can be dealt with.

Looking forward to a blow by blow as the "personalization" begins.

kevster™ · Dec 8, 2006

CommandoRoadster said:
KEVSTER- Right now you are getting a standing ovation from all on this forum! Congradulations.

Thanks CommandoRoadster! I'm looking forward to getting it. The seller didn't know too much about the inner workings of the bike, but he bought it two years ago from a Norton/Brit bike specialist (Canadian) who restored it prior to the sale. It's a 'Bitsa bike as someone who owns a few Nortons called it.

Thanks again!

kevin

kevster™ · Dec 8, 2006

Ron L said:
Congratulations, Kevster!
Welcome to the fold. One warning. It's contagious. I bought my roadster new, wanted a hotrod, so I built one, but kept the roadster. Then I wanted a "sport-tourer", so I built the Interstate. The fastback styling I hated when I was 18 sort of grew on me in the '90's so I built that one. They are all Commandos, but are all different.

What year roadster did you find? There are four different frames for the 750, but only the very early '68 is a problem. The '71 has a side stand issue, but that can be dealt with.

Looking forward to a blow by blow as the "personalization" begins.

Hey, Ron--

I've been meaning to compliment you on your bike collection there. Wow. You seem to have the bike pretty well covered. Any new acquisitions in works?

As I just mentioned, the bike is a mix of Norton makes. From what I can tell by the numbers, the engine is a '73, the transmission comes from a '70 (Fastback, I'm guessing), and the frame a '70 Roadster. One helpful guy wrote and pointed out that it had a drilled disk rotor and a MK3 style single stay front fender. It also comes with a brand new Corbin seat (with lock), as well as the original seat. I won't be picking up the bike for 10 days or so, but will definitely be here lurking in the meantime trying to learn all I can. And I'll definitely update you once the bike is in the garage. Sounds silly, but I can't wait to start her up(!).

Thanks for all your help! Again, you guys have been a HUGE help.

kevin

debby · Dec 8, 2006

kevin,

Congratulations on your purchase!

My current Norton (unlike many on this forum, I only have one at the moment) is a '72 750 that I bought off ebay. It was a "cosmetic restoration" as Ron L puts it. The bike looked great but almost everything on it was worn out or had been butchered by the previous owners. I took it all the way down last winter for a full restoration. $8,000 later it's in pretty good shape. I wouldn't say it's "done" - there's always more to do - but it's a nice bike now.

They're great bikes when they're well sorted. I'm sure you'll enjoy yours very much. And I hope you have better luck with it than I did!

Debby
72 semi-Combat

MichaelB · Dec 8, 2006

Congradulations there Kev. Welcome to the dark side.
Getting bit by the Norton Bug is akin to getting a virus, there is no cure, you'll now have it for life. :lol: :lol:

Might as well order up a clutch spring compressor tool now. You'll need it.
It is the only SAFE way to remove the diaphragm spring.
Every Norton I have bought, the clutch has been mucked up. This is normal when they sit and Non Norton people have owned them. :wink:
They usually just need to be cleaned and reassembled. No biggie
We can walk you through anything.

Congradulations and welcome.

debby · Dec 8, 2006

MichaelB said:
Every Norton I have bought, the clutch has been mucked up. This is normal when they sit and Non Norton people have owned them. :wink:

It's funny, the clutch was about the only thing that was good on my bike when I got it! Easy pull, no slip. It did need a new cable though.

And yes, don't be shy about asking questions. The forum was very helpful to me when I bought my bike and was struggling with its various issues.

Debby

kanlimey · Dec 8, 2006

Way to go, Kev!
If you decide to dive into this Norton and re-do it all, follow Debby's entries on this forum. Step by step rebuild of her bike, informative, and she did a first-rate job! My first Norton was a '73 750-excellent machine and I've still got it-I HAD to have one when a friend just SMOKED my Triumph at the time. You'll either love 'em or hate 'em-betting on the former. Best of luck, and ENJOY!

Mike
Kansas, America (Flat, like that 850 torque curve

)
8 Commandos, 3 Bonnies, 1 Daytona and a little old red-headed stepchild BSA that's coming close to done

Ron L · Dec 8, 2006

Kevster,
Your '73 engine should have a serial number 22XXXX and the good news is it is the strongest of all the 750 cases with good Superblend main bearings. This model came in either high compression or low compression versions. The head will be stamped RH6 for the high compression and RH5 for the low compression version. The clutch on the '73 is the 5-plate version, but if you have an earlier transmission you may have a 4-plate. Either should stand up to normal riding.

The earlier transmission is of no consequence as there was no difference save for a slightly different 3rd gear set on later models. They all need a roller bearing for the layshaft the first time you open up the gearbox.

kevster™ · Dec 9, 2006

debby said:
kevin,

Congratulations on your purchase!

My current Norton (unlike many on this forum, I only have one at the moment) is a '72 750 that I bought off ebay. It was a "cosmetic restoration" as Ron L puts it. The bike looked great but almost everything on it was worn out or had been butchered by the previous owners. I took it all the way down last winter for a full restoration. $8,000 later it's in pretty good shape. I wouldn't say it's "done" - there's always more to do - but it's a nice bike now.

They're great bikes when they're well sorted. I'm sure you'll enjoy yours very much. And I hope you have better luck with it than I did!

Debby
72 semi-Combat

Thanks Debbie--

There's a decent chance that this bike will need significant 'upgrading.' (Members on this forum have made me realize it's best to expect it). I'll take possession in a week or so and will have a better idea then. The seller did seem honest about what he knew and didn't know, which helps. And apparently, even though the numbers don't match up, it was put together by a guy who specializes in Norton restorations. I'll be getting his name and phone # from the current owner of the bike so I can call and get as much information about the bike as I can.

I can only imagine how much you learned by doing the restoration on your bike. And the cost(!).... geez. What hath I dunnuth?

kevin

kevster™ · Dec 9, 2006

MichaelB said:
Congradulations there Kev. Welcome to the dark side.
Getting bit by the Norton Bug is akin to getting a virus, there is no cure, you'll now have it for life. :lol: :lol:

A virus is what it feels like. And the expense is the last thing I need right now. But.... something compels one. The 'dark side'... yes, that's it. Starting to question my sanity. The wife looks on at the pictures of the (forthcoming) bike with seething, murderous eyes (not quite, just added for literary effect).

Might as well order up a clutch spring compressor tool now. You'll need it. It is the only SAFE way to remove the diaphragm spring.
Every Norton I have bought, the clutch has been mucked up. This is normal when they sit and Non Norton people have owned them. :wink:
They usually just need to be cleaned and reassembled. No biggie
We can walk you through anything.

I'll need plenty of walking through, I can assure you(!). And are you serious about the clutch thing? This guy rode the bike, but I don't think he rode it more than once a week or so. And he didn't know much about bikes by his own admission.

Congradulations and welcome.

Thanks on the 'gradulations. And the help!

kevin

kevster™ · Dec 9, 2006

kanlimey said:
Way to go, Kev!
If you decide to dive into this Norton and re-do it all, follow Debby's entries on this forum. Step by step rebuild of her bike, informative, and she did a first-rate job!

I'll definitely look into Debby's entries. I'll need all the help I can get. It's great she documented it so well.

My first Norton was a '73 750-excellent machine and I've still got it-I HAD to have one when a friend just SMOKED my Triumph at the time. You'll either love 'em or hate 'em-betting on the former. Best of luck, and ENJOY!

Neat that you still have your first machine. Thanks for the 'good luck,' I'm sure I'll need it.

Mike
Kansas, America (Flat, like that 850 torque curve )
8 Commandos, 3 Bonnies, 1 Daytona and a little old red-headed stepchild BSA that's coming close to done

8 Commandos! Wow.

Kevin (born and raised in Iowa, also FLAT), but now living in hilly PA.

kevster™ · Dec 9, 2006

Ron L said:
Kevster,
Your '73 engine should have a serial number 22XXXX and the good news is it is the strongest of all the 750 cases with good Superblend main bearings. This model came in either high compression or low compression versions. The head will be stamped RH6 for the high compression and RH5 for the low compression version. The clutch on the '73 is the 5-plate version, but if you have an earlier transmission you may have a 4-plate. Either should stand up to normal riding.

Ron L--

I 'think' I found an identification chart of Captain Norton's website (e-mailed it to myself but forgot where I took it from, exactly). From this information, I've guessing the following.

Owners says the #s are as follows:

Engine = 242347 (which makes this a last year 750 model?)
Trans. = 127166 ('68-'69.... possible Fastback?)
Frame = 135122 ('69 Fastback?)

I was on the Norvil site before to try and identify the bike but the Captain Norton's chart seems more specific. I've included it (likely everyone here has seen it but just in case) at the end of this post.

The earlier transmission is of no consequence as there was no difference save for a slightly different 3rd gear set on later models. They all need a roller bearing for the layshaft the first time you open up the gearbox.

I'll have to investigate how to do this.... right now I have no clue.

Per usual, a million thanks for your help.

kevin

Commando
prefix 20M3 - distributor model
prefix 20M3S - Camshaft end points model.

750 Models:
Month Year Serial No. Model/Notes
Feb 1968 126125 First Production Commando
Mar 1969 131180 Fastback
Mar 1969 131257 S with camshaft end points
Sept 1969 133668 Fastback
134108 First Wolverhampton engine
(P suffix Plumstead)
Mar 1970 135140 Roadster
June 1970 135008 Last S
Sept 1970 139571 Fastback MkII
Jan 1971 141717 Last Fastback MkII
Jan 1971 142534 Roadster MkII
Mar 1971 145234 SS
Apr 1971 144343 Fastback LR
May 1971 146074 Hi-Rider
Oct 1971 150723 Last SS
Jan 1972 200001 Fastback MkIV
Jan 1972 200001 Fastback LR MkIV
Jan 1972 200001 Roadster MkIV
Jan 1972 200001 Hi-Rider MkIV
Jan 1972 200001 Interstate
200976 First Combat engine
211110 First detuned engine
1973 212278 Interstate
Mar 1973 220001 Roadster MkV
Mar 1973 220001 Hi-Rider MkV
Mar 1973 220001 Interstate MkV
230935 last 750 Commando

850 Models:
Month Year Serial No. Model/Notes
Apr 1973 300000 First 850
Sep 1973 306591 MkIA 850
Jan 1974 307311 MkII and IIA 850
Feb 1975 325001 First engine number MkIII
F125001 Frame number MkIII

L.A.B. · Dec 9, 2006

kevster™ said:
Engine = 242347 (which makes this a last year 750 model?)

That number would appear to be considerably higher than the last known (October 1973) 750 production model = 230935.

Unfortunately the production numbers given here (or anywhere else for that matter) cannot be guaranteed as being 100% accurate, so should only be looked upon as a guide.

brittwin · Dec 9, 2006

[quote="kevster] In fact, I was the high bidder on a bike today on Ebay, so, go figure, I am now the proud owner of a 750 Roadster(!). Can't believe it. Not sure if there is a place to post pictures of bikes here (I'll check), but it's gorgeous to my eye. It's a higher mileage, several owner bike, but apparently was the project of a Canadian bike mechanic specializing in Norton/British bikes. The present owner bought the bike from said mechanic, and has all maintence on it performed by the professional mechanic. And I bought the bike at a decent price (the guy lowered the reserve so it went cheaper than he had originally intended). So it appears, at least on paper, that we are underway here. For better or worse!

* C O N G R A T S ! *

CommandoRoadster · Dec 9, 2006

Kev-
Maybe somebody already said this. If so, I missed it. Don't ever sit on your Commando on the sidestand. You can break off the pivot tab, and sometimes take part of the frame with it! Don't ask me how I know this!

If your bike doesn't have a centrestand, get one. If it does have one, take it off, and inspect it for cracks in the welds. Maybe someone on here can post some pics on where to add the gussets so it doesn't crack again. Norton fixed this on the 850s, so maybe it's already done for you. Check it out.

General Bike Theory/Purchasing Questions

Ron L

kevster™

kevster™

kevster™

CommandoRoadster

Ron L

kevster™

kevster™

debby

MichaelB

"Sons of Arthritus"

debby

kanlimey

Ron L

kevster™

kevster™

kevster™

kevster™

L.A.B.

Moderator

brittwin

CommandoRoadster

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