"Full Flow" Oil Filter Kit

Hobot · Jun 3, 2014

I keep pointing at references that state the size particles we should be concerned with on wear issues pass though regular filters like birds though fences. Until someone can post counter evidence that normal filters trap this then I rest my case against mere wishful thinking i used to believe in too. If what the majority posting say is true then implies the designer / vendors of bypass filter systems and toil paper filters are frauds selling them to anyone. Safe Journeys a long time.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... er+opening
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... +vs+bypass

Time Warp · Jun 3, 2014

Interesting link to read later.
Of course the Ducati engine is a wet clutch roller bearing main (angular contact as perhaps the Norton could have had if th e cases had the space to fit them) and big end engine so a little different to a Commando,even when they did fit a small oil filter to that spec engine it was via a branch off a feed gallery and then it had a restrictor, the 'filtered oil dropped into the bevel gear side of the engine.
In theory the oil would get filtered eventually.
The Moto Guzzi Eldorado has no oil filter either, one article showed how a very strong rare earth magnet had been installed under the sump after milling a recess in the fins, it was both amazing and a concern how much it had stopped at the next pan removal.
That could be used on a Commando somewhere with a bit of ingenuity along with the oil filter,the centrifugal sludge trap still lets things past.
The catch with the Commando is the filter is on the return leg but is better than nothing,oil changes colour for a reason so it is not all about part wear and is still only as good as the clean oil you put in the tank (as already said)

comnoz · Jun 3, 2014

I did another good demonstration last fall of the value of a filter when I had the piston seizure last fall with my bike. I rode the bike over 3000 miles after it seized before the piston collapsed completely and then another 35 miles after that to get back into cell phone range.

I posted pictures of the rod bearings and crank. They could be put back in and run for another 100,000 even with the cup full of shrapnel that I dumped from the cases when I took it apart. Jim

lcrken · Jun 3, 2014

I know I should stay out of this, but I can't resist. One has to ask, if the usual spin-on (or other pleated paper) filters aren't useful, why do all the modern auto, bike, airplane, and boat manufacturers, as well as Formula 1 designers, use them? I mean, are they all so stupid they can't read and/or understand the articles hobot refers to? Or is there possibly another explanation? To be fair to Steve, if I understand him correctly, he isn't saying oil filters do any harm, but doesn't think they do any good either.

Ken

Time Warp · Jun 3, 2014

hobot said:
Much as it goes against the ignorance grain of seeming common sense there is only one time automotive level oil filter has any benefit and that is on initial start up warm up cycle till first oil change, which should be before ya leave home.

There is way to much reading beyond that post but some would say that is when some filters do very little (cold engine oil at higher viscosity)
The oil simply goes through the bypass with no filtering.
Will the thread turn into the FRAM debate.

comnoz · Jun 3, 2014

Heh, no debating fram They are pretty orange and make great shelf filler. :shock:

1up3down · Jun 3, 2014

One has to ask, if the usual spin-on (or other pleated paper) filters aren't useful, why do all the modern auto, bike, airplane, and boat manufacturers, as well as Formula 1 designers, use them?

1) because they are getting under the table pay off money

2) they are stupid people and don't know all the facts

3) they are the best engineers and manufacturers in the world and know better than anyone, so STFU

your choice, 1.2. or 3

comnoz · Jun 3, 2014

I pick number 4.

Time Warp · Jun 3, 2014

comnoz said:
Heh, no debating fram They are pretty orange and make great shelf filler. :shock:

Was Norton the first to add a canister oil filter (British bikes) system ?

comnoz · Jun 3, 2014

Time Warp said:
comnoz said:

Heh, no debating fram They are pretty orange and make great shelf filler. :shock:

Click to expand...

Was Norton the first to add a canister oil filter (British bikes) system ?

I don't know enough about the British bikes other than Norton to say for sure. Jim

cjandme · Jun 3, 2014

I must admit that I didn't take the time to read all of this thread , but in response to finding a location to add a magnet, I would say that I seen them added to the outside of spin on filters in the past, as well as in the drain plug itself.

Hobot · Jun 3, 2014

hobot has analyzed Commando sludge to find ~1/3 ferric magnetic, 1/4 non ferric non magnetic metals and the rest carbonized ceramic like grit. For those w/o time or mood to read short articles just look at these picture and listen to some more mis leading hobot points. How can we add effective wear filtration?

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klcBRnyCSvo[/video]

Nater_Potater · Jun 3, 2014

Time Warp said:
Was Norton the first to add a canister oil filter (British bikes) system ?

My '72 T150 had a cartridge filter installed in the bottom of the crank case. While it wasn't a spin-on, it was a full-flow pleated paper item. I believe that started with the '69 variant.

Nathan

WZ507 · Jun 3, 2014

hobot said:
I keep pointing at references that state the size particles we should be concerned with on wear issues pass though regular filters like birds though fences. Until someone can post counter evidence that normal filters trap this then I rest my case against mere wishful thinking i used to believe in too. If what the majority posting say is true then implies the designer / vendors of bypass filter systems and toil paper filters are frauds selling them to anyone. Safe Journeys a long time.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=oil+filter+opening
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=oil+filter+vs+bypass

One of your earlier links directed the readers to a GM technical paper published in SAE that presented a data table showing relative engine life as a function of particle size of oil contaminants present in the engine. Comparing 40 um filtering to 15 um filtering increased engine life by ~3.5X. Cutting an even finer line, improving the filtration from 15 um down to 7 um ended up increasing engine life by a factor of 7X over the engine with 40 um oil contaminants present.

You made the request above for counter evidence that vendors offer filters that operate in a useful range, and in light of the data table above, links to factory hog filters alleged to remove 10, 6 and 5 um particles are offered.

http://tinyurl.com/q22qgll
http://tinyurl.com/owr7xvp
http://tinyurl.com/md5mn8l

In my mind this seems to nicely tie together the particle size range that is beneficially removed from an engine, with examples of filters that remove said sized particles. And of all the vendors that might make oil filters to remove this particular range of particle sizes, it's our old friends, the air-cooled Hog luddites that are at the cutting edge.

Hobot · Jun 3, 2014

Dang it these oil threads are like tar babies to me. WZ thanks so much for paying attention and besting me with shocking particle physics references plus revealing a no brainer solution that makes me think anyone not fitting one of those hi end Harely filters is just plain backwards thinking to go filterless. Such a satisfying upgrade I must now re think Ms Peel's lower plumbing, again. Now what sort of oil did we finally settle on and on...

with allusion to the doll smeared with tar as a trap for Brer Rabbit, in J. C. Harris's Uncle Remus .

comnoz · Jun 3, 2014

I did the first oil change on my new motor tonight. Here is where I have magnets . The magnet on the dipstick is mainly to look at for peace of mind when I check my oil level. They are 1/4 inch diameter rare earth magnets held into shallow recesses with JB weld.

The oil filter from my old engine was still on the draining rack so I decided to take a look. One of the modifications on my bike is machine work on the timing cover to re-plumb the oil system so the filter is on the pressure side of the pump -between the pump and the oil supply to the crank and head. So anything that was caught by the filter had already passed through the screen in the sump plug and the screen in the oil tank. I am glad the filter was there. Jim

Hobot, Mobil 1 from the first time I started it.

Hobot · Jun 4, 2014

ugh, Jim I thot I'd stirred the pot enough but a decayed brain island thinks what good did catching what already went through a 'walking dead' engine after detonation crumbles, though how can I contest the incredible mileage pace it held up till nothing much left to come apart to catch. Another decay hole wonders if the hi end HD filter was fitted would it protect against piles of motion blocking swarf that long or clogged up to seize engine before its time? Anyowho we are saying the same thing, full flow filter is a wise feature to block the big dramatic stuff just not the normal expected wear particles between oil changes. $15 a pop for bypass level spin on filter convinced me to become a filter believer today. Very good to see essentially nothing on your magnets with current Mobile One up to our engine needs. Can we even think about 5x's longer engine life with extra fine filter? Would have to improve air filter too I'd think, at least with my nano dust bunnies. Hm, later might search up these HD filters for downsides we might be missing just going by ads like Combat hp.

WZ507 · Jun 4, 2014

hobot said:
Dang it these oil threads are like tar babies to me. WZ thanks so much for paying attention and besting me with shocking particle physics references plus revealing a no brainer solution that makes me think anyone not fitting one of those hi end Harely filters is just plain backwards thinking to go filterless. Such a satisfying upgrade I must now re think Ms Peel's lower plumbing, again. Now what sort of oil did we finally settle on and on...

with allusion to the doll smeared with tar as a trap for Brer Rabbit, in J. C. Harris's Uncle Remus .

hobot,

I love the Tar Baby rendering above. Apologies for throwing you a "tar baby" (might be meaningless to those readers unfamiliar with US folk stories - refers to a doll modeled from tar and turpentine) just when you thought you were free of the matter once and for all, but was simply looking over your data and piecing it together. Perhaps your only escape from the tar baby might be to go fully synthetic, thereby moving away from the "tar-sand" derived alternatives! Or maybe better yet go fully organic (that's popular nowadays isn't it?) and return to Castrol R40 - but it has tar/gel problems of its own doesn't it? Maybe one of these lubricants might actually be a partial solvent for the tar and free you once and for all.

Matt Spencer · Jun 4, 2014

:shock: :lol: :?

sounds like we need to fit one of these . :twisted:

22 bucks , http://www.ebay.ie/itm/PACKARD-MERLIN-V ... 2334800d79

This sort of filter used to be pretty much standard , pre 1970

seems like BMW are still keen on them . Easier to ' inspect the filter ' for fourigen matter , as routeen at changes .
Aircraft , if running rough ( irreegular vibes ) could inspect filters for big ends and other such pieces .
The type of metal , if present , indicative of source of trouble .

" transmission magnet with metal debris "

:x

comnoz · Jun 4, 2014

hobot said:
ugh, Jim I thot I'd stirred the pot enough but a decayed brain island thinks what good did catching what already went through a 'walking dead' engine after detonation crumbles, though how can I contest the incredible mileage pace it held up till nothing much left to come apart to catch. Another decay hole wonders if the hi end HD filter was fitted would it protect against piles of motion blocking swarf that long or clogged up to seize engine before its time? Anyowho we are saying the same thing, full flow filter is a wise feature to block the big dramatic stuff just not the normal expected wear particles between oil changes. $15 a pop for bypass level spin on filter convinced me to become a filter believer today. Very good to see essentially nothing on your magnets with current Mobile One up to our engine needs. Can we even think about 5x's longer engine life with extra fine filter? Would have to improve air filter too I'd think, at least with my nano dust bunnies. Hm, later might search up these HD filters for downsides we might be missing just going by ads like Combat hp.

The filter in the picture is a Mobil 1 oil filter. It uses a very fine synthetic media and is rated at 10 microns although Mobil does not supply efficiency ratings for it.
Here's a pretty good article on filters. Jim

http://www.gwrra-ohh2.org/pdf/oilfilter.pdf

"Full Flow" Oil Filter Kit

Hobot

Time Warp

.......back to the 70's.

comnoz

lcrken

Time Warp

.......back to the 70's.

comnoz

1up3down

comnoz

Time Warp

.......back to the 70's.

comnoz

cjandme

Hobot

Nater_Potater

WZ507

Hobot

comnoz

Hobot

WZ507

Matt Spencer

comnoz

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