"Full Flow" Oil Filter Kit

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tomspro said:
Thanks for the filtering tip Jim!
Where did you locate it? I cannot tell from the pic.
Is it significant whether put the return or supply line?
Click to expand...

The filter absolutely must go in the return line or you will have no oil pressure. An oil pump can not draw through a filter.
Since it is in the return line it will have no effect on oil pressure.

It will fit mostly under the oil tank. You can see the clutch cable in the picture I posted. I don't use a bracket. I just put a fat o-ring around the filter to keep it from rubbing against the things around it. Jim
 
That is a pretty good clue, I don't believe I've ever pulled a motor down and not found metal particles in a corner somewhere. The oil tank on my bike is very big, and it has a wire strainer on the feed line, however if I drain the oil under bright light, I can usually see metal particles glistening in it.
 
The term "full Flow" indicates its the standard automotive filer all the oil flows though w/o bypassing any of it, unless so clogged the emergency bypass valve is forced opened letting unfilter oil to keep engine pressure up.

http://www.baldwinfilter.com/ProductHig ... 02011.html

I mislead forum on friction wear causing sizes. This article says 1 to 10 mu are the main buggers to catch. Realize carbon becomes almost diamond like in small particles and aluminum fully oxidizes to Al-oxide, aka: Sapphire as in scratch resistance lens and gear pivots so ignore magnets. Personally I worry more about corrosion micro pitting than runing wear which is oil package and age related but produces the wear size particle flakes like birds through fences.

http://www.oilguard.com/whareclpacs.html

"Full Flow" Oil Filter Kit


"Full Flow" Oil Filter Kit
 
Hm, maybe 1 mu size should be allowed to polish up the surfaces like the fine polish sold for this in past that helped my old V8s mileage some. Brit Iron or NOC-UK told a tale that RAF experimented with dumping fine grit in the German fighters closing in on them in hopes its wear bores and valve sealing to lose power and fall back but instead picked up power so experiment quickly dropped. I've not found any online references so here say but fun to imagine.
 
Leave it to a guy who knows his stuff to come up with a new trick. Never knew such a thing existed.I would use this if I were to run a filter. However, I have had Brit engines that use big mesh screens and finer mesh screens as their sole filtration system. Obviously not up to todays filter standards. Then again, my bike has about 40k on it now and it has never heard of a filter. Seems I remember a screen at the bottom of the oil tank feed and one on the sump plug ala Brit technology of the time. Keeping the big and medium size particles out is all I think I need. Then gain, two hose clamps and a bit of hose with a new fangled filter may be in the offing. Sure beats the other set ups I have seen people using. Thanks for the info Jim.
 
I am a firm believer in an oil filter. Those screens just keep the birds and big insects out. :)

I was riding home from Missouri some 30 years ago and somewhere in the 60 miles between two towns in Kansas I lost a valve adjuster nut. I didn't hear it until I
pulled up to the gas station. I pulled the valve cover and found the nut wedged down beside the spring. I reinstalled it and continued on. By the time I got home the engine was rattling and smoking out the exhaust. When I pulled it down I found everything was scored up from the metal that was removed from the rocker arm end and the top of the valve. I had to bore it and turn the crank along with replace the bearings. I have no doubt that if there would have been an oil filter the damage would have been minimal.

I have also had engines shipped to me for rebuild that had suffered a cam failure. There is a big difference in the damage between and engine that had a filter and the engines that did not.

The engines with no filter usually need a crank grind by the time they need a bore job - even if they haven't had any parts failures. Jim
 
Jim
I think that’s a great filter for my P11 project. I was trying to figure out how to put a commando filter into a P11 (there is not much room). I will have to see where it can be placed.
Cheers,
Tom
CNN
 
Hi Jim.
This seems promising, filter and magnet in one unit.
Is this a unit that must be replaced in its entirety or is it possible to just replace the paper element inside?
 
Kvinnhering said:
Hi Jim.
This seems promising, filter and magnet in one unit.
Is this a unit that must be replaced in its entirety or is it possible to just replace the paper element inside?
Click to expand...

I have always bought the plastic units and just replaced the whole thing. I guess the elements are replaceable but I haven't found any elements in stock near me.
If I had purchased the aluminum units I would have ordered replacement elements. Jim
 
Full Flow Oil filters are a good thing, just not a good as advertisers imply or doing what eager installers want to believe with wear protection. I am not claiming its a bad thing to run oil filter just pointing out its way over rated upgrade. Comnoz report has confused me so seek clarification. Unless Comnoz has re-routed mayor Cdo oil paths a loose rocker adjuster nut would beat metal chips in the rocker box which could only damage rest of the engine by following intake oil down cylinder small drain passage or from exhaust side down the small lifters bevel space, both paths enter flywheel rod area to windage churn then into sump side of oil pump, all before normal filter can catch them. How can oil filter after the fact protect engine? Chips from rocker area could foul crank bearings but can not get into rod journals d/t their speed of sling and spray of oil outward. Significant size chips/particle carried to oil tank would settle to bottom in hot thin oil before sucked back into engine. An internal sump *screen* would save oil pump but not anything before it. I'd want a sump screen for engine damage particles to protect oil pump more than a regular filter afterwards. So personally I think main advantage of oil filter, after initial run in oil change and exam, is the extra oil volume for cooling the oil on WOT throttle use as it sure can't cool engine but for the tiny spaces of rods and bearings and spindle shafts and valve springs. Harley tried oil cooling to only run into over heated oil or need of radiator size cooler and enough oil to top it off. We have long mileage reports on this forum and others w/o an oil filter so must account for that in the reasoning of need of regular filtration. If engine parts come loose of break off like cam thrush washer tabs oil filter won't help but keep oil tank clean. Just hope to add similar pensive sense I have not believing in false security features away from home.

i've got to figure out a pre pump oil -screen filter for Peel's OIF as even with the internal pickling anti corrosion treatment likely some rust crust will circulate some so have barrel of a "stash" pipe with screens and ring magnet just after the anti-sump valve I'll only shut off if stored for weeks+ so have some wet sump on first cold starts.
 
hobot said:
Full Flow Oil filters are a good thing, just not a good as advertisers imply or doing what eager installers want to believe with wear protection. I am not claiming its a bad thing to run oil filter just pointing out its way over rated upgrade. Comnoz report has confused me so seek clarification. Unless Comnoz has re-routed mayor Cdo oil paths a loose rocker adjuster nut would beat metal chips in the rocker box which could only damage rest of the engine by following intake oil down cylinder small drain passage or from exhaust side down the small lifters bevel space, both paths enter flywheel rod area to windage churn then into sump side of oil pump, all before normal filter can catch them. How can oil filter after the fact protect engine? Chips from rocker area could foul crank bearings but can not get into rod journals d/t their speed of sling and spray of oil outward. Significant size chips/particle carried to oil tank would settle to bottom in hot thin oil before sucked back into engine. An internal sump *screen* would save oil pump but not anything before it. I'd want a sump screen for engine damage particles to protect oil pump more than a regular filter afterwards. So personally I think main advantage of oil filter, after initial run in oil change and exam, is the extra oil volume for cooling the oil on WOT throttle use as it sure can't cool engine but for the tiny spaces of rods and bearings and spindle shafts and valve springs. Harley tried oil cooling to only run into over heated oil or need of radiator size cooler and enough oil to top it off. We have long mileage reports on this forum and others w/o an oil filter so must account for that in the reasoning of need of regular filtration. If engine parts come loose of break off like cam thrush washer tabs oil filter won't help but keep oil tank clean. Just hope to add similar pensive sense I have not believing in false security features away from home.

i've got to figure out a pre pump oil -screen filter for Peel's OIF as even with the internal pickling anti corrosion treatment likely some rust crust will circulate some so have barrel of a "stash" pipe with screens and ring magnet just after the anti-sump valve I'll only shut off if stored for weeks+ so have some wet sump on first cold starts.
Click to expand...

Hobot makes some very good points here...makes it seem like an oil filter is superfluous. Any large chip will be trapped in the sump screen before ever getting to any external filter. (Hobot writes "i've got to figure out a pre pump oil -screen filter..." I'm confused here...the Atlas has a sump screen, does not a Cdo?). Still, I like the idea of something external, just for peace of mind. The tranny filter Jim shows is interesting...I plan to pick one up for review.

I disagree with Hobot's point that oil does not cool engine....I agree with the part, as he points out, little cooling occurs in the tiny spaces where oil protects wearing parts, but oil slung off the big ends (I do not know about Cdos, but the Atlas has a squirt hole in the big end as well) splashes the inside of the piston and cylinder walls, and absorbs heat from these parts most critically in need of cooling.

Slick
 
I really do not understand this thread. Hobot starts by saying that filters are a complete waste of time after the initial break-in period, then goes on to quote a filter manufacturer saying that particles sized 1-20 microns are the ones which do the most damage.
Even accepting that an ordinary common or garden paper filter will not catch 100% of these particles, how does one then conclude that they are not beneficial?

The actual figures for filtration efficiency will vary, depending on where they come from, but I recall from my time working in the automotive industry that the rule of thumb was that the paper filter would catch almost everything down to 15-20 microns, and a decreasing amount of stuff down to around 5 microns.

Looking at http://www.oilguard.com/whareclpacs.html for example, they quote a SAE Technical paper as saying that removing particles down to 15 microns will give about 3.6 times the engine life relative to only removing down to 40 microns.

Simply cutting a used paper filter open and peering at the contents is unlikely to reveal much - you have damn good eyesight if you can see a 15 micron lump. Try a microscope and a good light instead, you might be amazed :-)

Screen filters have their place (to remove large lumps and small rocks), but not fitting some form of fine particle filter is really rather silly in the extreme. Any bit of decent engineering involving lubrication and pumps should always have filters. Even British motorbikes.

/Steve in Copenhagen
 
Quoting SteveBorland "I really do not understand this thread."

I'm getting to that point as well!!!!

Slick
 
hobot said:
Full Flow Oil filters are a good thing, just not a good as advertisers imply or doing what eager installers want to believe with wear protection. I am not claiming its a bad thing to run oil filter just pointing out its way over rated upgrade. Comnoz report has confused me so seek clarification. Unless Comnoz has re-routed mayor Cdo oil paths a loose rocker adjuster nut would beat metal chips in the rocker box which could only damage rest of the engine by following intake oil down cylinder small drain passage or from exhaust side down the small lifters bevel space, both paths enter flywheel rod area to windage churn then into sump side of oil pump, all before normal filter can catch them. How can oil filter after the fact protect engine? Chips from rocker area could foul crank bearings but can not get into rod journals d/t their speed of sling and spray of oil outward. Significant size chips/particle carried to oil tank would settle to bottom in hot thin oil before sucked back into engine. An internal sump *screen* would save oil pump but not anything before it. I'd want a sump screen for engine damage particles to protect oil pump more than a regular filter afterwards. So personally I think main advantage of oil filter, after initial run in oil change and exam, is the extra oil volume for cooling the oil on WOT throttle use as it sure can't cool engine but for the tiny spaces of rods and bearings and spindle shafts and valve springs. Harley tried oil cooling to only run into over heated oil or need of radiator size cooler and enough oil to top it off. We have long mileage reports on this forum and others w/o an oil filter so must account for that in the reasoning of need of regular filtration. If engine parts come loose of break off like cam thrush washer tabs oil filter won't help but keep oil tank clean. Just hope to add similar pensive sense I have not believing in false security features away from home.

i've got to figure out a pre pump oil -screen filter for Peel's OIF as even with the internal pickling anti corrosion treatment likely some rust crust will circulate some so have barrel of a "stash" pipe with screens and ring magnet just after the anti-sump valve I'll only shut off if stored for weeks+ so have some wet sump on first cold starts.
Click to expand...

It's true that particles from the damaged valve stem/rocker would go into the crankcase and could possibly cause a little damage before they were picked up by the scavenge pump and pumped to the filter where they would be held. Those particles would never make it to the rod bearings.

That sure beats particles being circulated over and over throughout the motor with no filter. Jim
 
Yep makes all sense in the world to filter out rare events of breaking up engine parts but still begs question of benefit for long term wear help. Don't expect to change anyone's minds just reason out why filters are mainly for big stuff at initial run in or final break downd. My main point is those w/o filters are not being extra stupid to put to shame, just keeping what most 750's came without, a long time before Commandos.
 
But where do you think all these small (<30 micron) metal particles come from if not from normal Norton wear? Why do you think it's a good think to keep all this stuff circulating through the engine?

I also own a mid 70's Ducati bevel drive which has no form of filtration other then a plastic mesh on the oil pump intake. In this case I "filter" the oil by doing a change every 1000km or so. At 4 litters each time, this is not an inexpensive exercise, but it's definitely cheaper then allowing the small stuff to circulate.

I think I've mentioned Royce Creasy's rather good article before, where he explained why he went to the considerable trouble of fitting a Norton type filter to a Ducati single - there are many copies of this out on the net, for example at http://www.motoscrubs.com/Ducati_Tech/oilfilter.pdf - it's worth a read if you are interested in the subject.
 
but still begs question of benefit for long term wear help
Click to expand...

Steve(Hobot), the answer to your questions is that when particles are trapped in the filter they stay there, unable
to do any more "long term wear"

and that is the exact benefit of having an oil filter fitted

I don't see where you have presented a clear and logical reason to not run a filter, or did I miss something?

your personal belief that oil filters are of little and dubious value (other than immediate start up with a new motor as you say) is groundless for the above reason

and I mean no personal insult or disrespect, Steve, but your insisting otherwise does not change the facts
 
I think (and hope :-)) that you mean Steve "hobot" rather than SteveBorland...

/Steve Borland in Denmark.
 
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