Follower scar oil tests (2018)
- Thread starter comnoz
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A formula 1 engine at the rev limiter [18000 rpm] has a mean piston speed of 78 FPS.
A Norton at 8000 rpm has a mean piston speed of 78 FPS.
The valve train loads in a pushrod Norton motor put it in the F1 range.
And then we have only air cooling, which is the limit to the power that can be made in a Norton.
Here is what Kawasaki says about air cooled, [low tuned] lawn mower engines.
"
Small Engine Oil vs Automotive Oil
The purpose of this post is to discuss the difference between Kawasaki small engine oil and typical automotive oil. This information may also apply to other small engine oils to a greater or lesser degree. Below we will discus two reasons why you should use small engine oil in small air cooled engines.
1. HEAT
Small air cooled engines run hotter than most automotive engines do. This is especially the case on hot summer days. Air cooled engines don’t have a thermostat to control the engine temperature like cars do. As the air temperature gets warmer the air blowing over the engine to cool it also gets warmer. If you get grass or other debris stuck in the cooling fins it can make the problem even worse. The oil temperature in a small engine can reach 280 – 300 degrees Fahrenheit on a hot summer day. This is nearly 100 degrees hotter than the oil in a typical car. Automotive SN/SL oils are not designed for these temperatures and will begin to break down. Kawasaki small engine oil is designed for use in high temperature environments and will not break down as quickly.
2. Zinc
The other important difference between Kawasaki small engine oil and most automotive oil is the levels of zinc that are added to the oil. Kawasaki small engine oil contains much higher levels of zinc than most automotive oil. Zinc has outstanding anti-wear qualities under extreme pressure. It also acts as an anti oxidant. High heat conditions in small engines accelerate the oxidation process in oil. This causes it to thicken and break down into other molecules. Because zinc is an anti oxidant it helps to prevent this break down of the oil and extend its useful life.
Small Engine Oil & Your Car
Can you use small engine oil in your car? The answer is no. High levels of zinc can cause damage to the emissions systems on newer cars. Automotive oil back in the 1970s contained high levels of zinc. However, modern automotive oils no longer contain as much zinc because high levels of zinc can damage the catalytic converter and 02 sensors in modern cars. For this reason we do not recommend using small engine oil in your car.
A Norton at 8000 rpm has a mean piston speed of 78 FPS.
The valve train loads in a pushrod Norton motor put it in the F1 range.
And then we have only air cooling, which is the limit to the power that can be made in a Norton.
Here is what Kawasaki says about air cooled, [low tuned] lawn mower engines.
"
Small Engine Oil vs Automotive Oil
The purpose of this post is to discuss the difference between Kawasaki small engine oil and typical automotive oil. This information may also apply to other small engine oils to a greater or lesser degree. Below we will discus two reasons why you should use small engine oil in small air cooled engines.
1. HEAT
Small air cooled engines run hotter than most automotive engines do. This is especially the case on hot summer days. Air cooled engines don’t have a thermostat to control the engine temperature like cars do. As the air temperature gets warmer the air blowing over the engine to cool it also gets warmer. If you get grass or other debris stuck in the cooling fins it can make the problem even worse. The oil temperature in a small engine can reach 280 – 300 degrees Fahrenheit on a hot summer day. This is nearly 100 degrees hotter than the oil in a typical car. Automotive SN/SL oils are not designed for these temperatures and will begin to break down. Kawasaki small engine oil is designed for use in high temperature environments and will not break down as quickly.
2. Zinc
The other important difference between Kawasaki small engine oil and most automotive oil is the levels of zinc that are added to the oil. Kawasaki small engine oil contains much higher levels of zinc than most automotive oil. Zinc has outstanding anti-wear qualities under extreme pressure. It also acts as an anti oxidant. High heat conditions in small engines accelerate the oxidation process in oil. This causes it to thicken and break down into other molecules. Because zinc is an anti oxidant it helps to prevent this break down of the oil and extend its useful life.
Small Engine Oil & Your Car
Can you use small engine oil in your car? The answer is no. High levels of zinc can cause damage to the emissions systems on newer cars. Automotive oil back in the 1970s contained high levels of zinc. However, modern automotive oils no longer contain as much zinc because high levels of zinc can damage the catalytic converter and 02 sensors in modern cars. For this reason we do not recommend using small engine oil in your car.
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If not for tests such as Jim Comstock’s I’m sure there would be more automotive specific oil in motorcycle oil tanks and crankcases than already are.
Many years ago, before one could purchase pressure washers as a complete unit with motor, I put one together using an existing 8 HP Tecumseh air cooled motor.
The pressure pump was a CAT and it's input power at full rpm was 5.5 HP . The CAT recommendation was to fit 7 HP electric, 8 HP diesel or 10 HP gas air-cooled as minimum motor sizes.
But I had a good 8 horse gas on hand and it only needed to put out 5.5 HP continuous.
The pressure washer ran beautifully for about twenty minutes at which point things locked up.
The motor was obviously sizzling hot.
On checking the oil, which was full and fresh at startup ( some cheapo brand, I can't recall), there wasn't any left in the engine, it had vaporized.
I replaced the motor with a 16 HP vtwin and that ran it for twenty years or more, a couple of thousand hours.
I also did try to find better quality oil, but without access to any independent testing it was impossible to know which oils were higher quality. I just went to a higher priced oil and hoped it was better.
I wonder if at times our Norton's are as hot as that 8 HP Tecumseh was when it was putting out 5.5 HP?
Ive never pushed mine at 100 mph for an hour as Jim has done, however I did recently run it up the Salmo Creston grade at full bore, 90-95 mph on a hot day.
That climb (7-8%) might even make more heat than running at a steady 100 on the flat.
I like the idea of using an oil with good film strength at high heat.
On a trip to Winthrop this year we seized two bikes on the climb, lots of engine damage. They seized within 100 yards of one another. I wonder if better oil would have prevented that?
Glen
The pressure pump was a CAT and it's input power at full rpm was 5.5 HP . The CAT recommendation was to fit 7 HP electric, 8 HP diesel or 10 HP gas air-cooled as minimum motor sizes.
But I had a good 8 horse gas on hand and it only needed to put out 5.5 HP continuous.
The pressure washer ran beautifully for about twenty minutes at which point things locked up.
The motor was obviously sizzling hot.
On checking the oil, which was full and fresh at startup ( some cheapo brand, I can't recall), there wasn't any left in the engine, it had vaporized.
I replaced the motor with a 16 HP vtwin and that ran it for twenty years or more, a couple of thousand hours.
I also did try to find better quality oil, but without access to any independent testing it was impossible to know which oils were higher quality. I just went to a higher priced oil and hoped it was better.
I wonder if at times our Norton's are as hot as that 8 HP Tecumseh was when it was putting out 5.5 HP?
Ive never pushed mine at 100 mph for an hour as Jim has done, however I did recently run it up the Salmo Creston grade at full bore, 90-95 mph on a hot day.
That climb (7-8%) might even make more heat than running at a steady 100 on the flat.
I like the idea of using an oil with good film strength at high heat.
On a trip to Winthrop this year we seized two bikes on the climb, lots of engine damage. They seized within 100 yards of one another. I wonder if better oil would have prevented that?
Glen
After a 50 mile flat freeway run at +90 mph, the oil in my Commando gets so thin there is hardly any oil pressure at idle. At that particular point I want the best oil available. One of those times where it didn’t fail, but was probably damn close to it.
Fast Eddie
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Lots of arguments in this thread in support of an oil cooler...
After speaking to a Spectro Oil engineer about oil temperatures I did, indeed, install an oil cooler. Of course, the troglodyte crowd considers oil pressure gauges and oil coolers are anathemas for proper Nortons.
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Onder
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If you go to a oil cooler, then you will have to do some testing to see what and how much etc is actually going on. I say this after speaking to
one of the fellows involved in the (original) Triumph Trident radiator when it was first developed. There was a lot more to it then just plumbing
in a radiator. And no doubt we now know a lot more about our engines than most did back then too.
Im all for oil coolers and gauges esp if you live in a torrid climate.
one of the fellows involved in the (original) Triumph Trident radiator when it was first developed. There was a lot more to it then just plumbing
in a radiator. And no doubt we now know a lot more about our engines than most did back then too.
Im all for oil coolers and gauges esp if you live in a torrid climate.
Fast Eddie
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Well, I moved my coil detritus out of the way in order to stick a cooler up under the tank, and NOT in front of the engine, which always seems a tad counter active to me.
I had kinda shelved the idea, but now I’m reconsidering...
I had kinda shelved the idea, but now I’m reconsidering...
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This relates to Comnoz' thread as it goes to the temperature of the oil getting to the cam/followers, and trying to preserve its protective capacities.
Last week I ordered one of these - a small 85ml oil cooler - 3.75" x 7.5" x 1.3" - hopefully it will mount between the down tubes and just below the front iso, with a stone guard.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/85ml-Engine-Oil-Cooler-Cooling-Radiator-for-Motorcycle-Dirt-Bike-ATV-100CC-250CC/113130336379?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
I plan to connect it directly to the top end oiling system to cool the oil that comes straight out of the engine before it goes to the head. That oil is pre-heated by the engine/oil pump - so cool it before it goes to the head.
Before ordering, I wondered just how much volume of oil goes through that small diameter top end oil line and at what rate, but then figured every little bit helps, even a few degrees below the oil's failure threshold will help, especially when it's being delivered to the hottest part of the engine.
Last week I ordered one of these - a small 85ml oil cooler - 3.75" x 7.5" x 1.3" - hopefully it will mount between the down tubes and just below the front iso, with a stone guard.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/85ml-Engine-Oil-Cooler-Cooling-Radiator-for-Motorcycle-Dirt-Bike-ATV-100CC-250CC/113130336379?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
I plan to connect it directly to the top end oiling system to cool the oil that comes straight out of the engine before it goes to the head. That oil is pre-heated by the engine/oil pump - so cool it before it goes to the head.
Before ordering, I wondered just how much volume of oil goes through that small diameter top end oil line and at what rate, but then figured every little bit helps, even a few degrees below the oil's failure threshold will help, especially when it's being delivered to the hottest part of the engine.
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Fast Eddie
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That’s my plan too, plumb the cooler into the rocker feed.
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OK...I should have said "oil-related."
Yes, due to faulty bearings and other poor choices engineering-wise, engines did come apart but It had nothing to do with "oil."As I have always said, do whatever you are comfortable with. If folks feel that a specific oil is required, that's what they should use.
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Will you be plumbing a thermostat for the cooler?
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Your Lockhart, does it cool tank oil 20*F, or just the rocker feed?
What are its dimensions?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mishimoto-In-Line-Oil-Thermostat-/323439318924
$131 bypass T-stat - for colder climes.
I'm in SoCal, so I doubt that a 4" x 7" exchanger will lower temps enough to require a bypass. If I ever ride in winter temps, then a blank off plate/cardboard covering the exchanger will have to do .
ashman
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I have been running a Lockhart oil cooler on my Norton since 1977 one year after buying my Norton new because of the heat, I don't run a thermostat at all and I run it dueing winter as well, never had any problems at all running to cool and I have had long life out of my motor.
Ashley
Guess I should amend my statement. A thermostat is optional, but I consider it a must.
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