Follower scar oil tests (2018)

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Thanks Jim, 20* is a good drop considering the heat inertia of the tank's volume; I'll have to figure out some way to measure temperature delta, in and out of the cooler.
 
xbacksideslider said:
Thanks Jim, 20* is a good drop considering the heat inertia of the tank's volume; I'll have to figure out some way to measure temperature delta, in and out of the cooler.
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Heat inertia? The way I looked at it the pump was being fed oil that was 20 degrees cooler with an oil cooler in place. I guess if I were going to measure temperature at different points, the temperature of the oil in the head would be most critical.

When I did this project I was in contact with an engineer from Spectro Oil. He seemed to think -20 at the tank was very good. IIRC, the engineer cautioned not to run over 220 F at the tank. I used a cheapo meat thermometer, so I can not verify any of these measurements.
 
I have a pair of oil coolers in my fairing. They are plumbed into the overhead oil line with no thermostat.
 
"A formula 1 engine at the rev limiter [18000 rpm] has a mean piston speed of 78 FPS.

A Norton at 8000 rpm has a mean piston speed of 78 FPS."

I want to emphasize again, that I am talking about OEM-type motors re this oil discussion. Yes, if you build a Norton, as Jim does, to that level of performance/power/RPM, the oil requirements are different due to the much higher heat and pressures that the added RPM/HP produces. But that level of power and use are not typical of Nortons being ridden on the street. An OEM Norton will not spin to 8k and makes it's max power around 2k RPM below that - with a mean piston speed of around 60FPS which is pretty much in the low/middle range of typical street engines.

Although it may sound as if I don't agree with the testing, that is not what I am trying to say. I am just saying that an oil that comes out at the top of the price/test procedure, may be overkill for "normal" engines which operate at far lower heat/pressure/power levels. It would be good to know what oil meets "normal" conditions as opposed to suddenly feeling compelled to spend $50+ per quart to "solve" a problem that you don't have. IOW, if the oils were rated on a 1-10 scale, maybe any oil rated above, say, 5 would be suitable for normal use. Oils above 7 maybe for track use and oils at 10 for the IOM...or whatever. Just some thoughts... ;)
 
MexicoMike said:
"A formula 1 engine at the rev limiter [18000 rpm] has a mean piston speed of 78 FPS.

A Norton at 8000 rpm has a mean piston speed of 78 FPS."

I want to emphasize again, that I am talking about OEM-type motors re this oil discussion. Yes, if you build a Norton, as Jim does, to that level of performance/power/RPM, the oil requirements are different due to the much higher heat and pressures that the added RPM/HP produces. But that level of power and use are not typical of Nortons being ridden on the street. An OEM Norton will not spin to 8k and makes it's max power around 2k RPM below that - with a mean piston speed of around 60FPS which is pretty much in the low/middle range of typical street engines.

Although it may sound as if I don't agree with the testing, that is not what I am trying to say. I am just saying that an oil that comes out at the top of the price/test procedure, may be overkill for "normal" engines which operate at far lower heat/pressure/power levels. It would be good to know what oil meets "normal" conditions as opposed to suddenly feeling compelled to spend $50+ per quart to "solve" a problem that you don't have. IOW, if the oils were rated on a 1-10 scale, maybe any oil rated above, say, 5 would be suitable for normal use. Oils above 7 maybe for track use and oils at 10 for the IOM...or whatever. Just some thoughts... ;)
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Where’s this $50 plus per quart oil you speak of?

Better to be overprotected than underprotected.

A 50 mile run at +90 mph on a freeway is probably more than the equal of a lap at IOM, as far as heat and stress.

Is your post all about your obvious disdain for high priced oils? Jim’s testing probably burst the bubble of some who were convinced they were using a great oil simply because the manufacture said it was.
 
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JimC said:
Where’s this $50 plus per quart oil you speak of?

Better to be overprotected than underprotected.

A 50 mile run at +90 mph on a freeway is probably more than the equal of a lap at IOM, as far as heat and stress.

Is your post all about your obvious disdain for high priced oils? Jim’s testing probably burst the bubble of some who were convinced they were using a great oil simply because the manufacture said it was.
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50/qt was a good-natured exaggeration, I apologize that that did not come through. So, let's say 25 bucks a qt...

Cruising at 90MPH isn't much of a strain on a 750/850 motorcycle engine compared with a lap at the IOM. You want to talk about oil, then Millers should be in the conversation - it's one of the most used oils per people who actually race there...

I have no disdain for high price oils if that is what is necessary for the engine to operate in the selected envelope.
 
“Cruising at 90MPH isn't much of a strain on a 750/850 motorcycle engine compared with a lap at the IOM.”

I beg to differ. If we are speaking of Commandos, 90 mph is close to being topped out for our old Commandos. Running for 30-40 minutes with little or no change in rpm with a big wind resistance is definitely a strain for the Commando. I know for a fact that type of running creates more heat than can be dispersed, resulting in very thin oil.

And, BTW, I did not see any oil Jim tested that was going for $25/qt. I did pay $18 per quart at O’Reilly’s for Royal Purple XPR.

If you rode 10,000 miles a year and changed oil 5 times you might save $50 by going with a less expensive oil. Not even dinner for two at a 3 star restaurant.
 
I know one thing.

Running the oil for 30 minutes at 220 degrees in a high shear situation before load testing it at 300 degrees has sure separated the "men from the boys" as far as oils go.

We now have a new king of the load capacity. Too much friction to be my choice in a Norton -but surprising just the same.
Nearly double the load capacity of the next highest at 300 degrees after putting it though the long test.
Any guesses? You've probably heard of it.
 
JimC said:
“Cruising at 90MPH isn't much of a strain on a 750/850 motorcycle engine compared with a lap at the IOM.”

I beg to differ. If we are speaking of Commandos, 90 mph is close to being topped out for our old Commandos. Running for 30-40 minutes with little or no change in rpm with a big wind resistance is definitely a strain for the Commando. I know for a fact that type of running creates more heat than can be dispersed, resulting in very thin oil.

And, BTW, I did not see any oil Jim tested that was going for $25/qt. I did pay $18 per quart at O’Reilly’s for Royal Purple XPR.

If you rode 10,000 miles a year and changed oil 5 times you might save $50 by going with a less expensive oil. Not even dinner for two at a 3 star restaurant.
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5x3= 15 qts@ 18= $270 (royal purple xpr)
15qts @$4.50= 67.50( Mobil 1 15/50)
Dif = $202.25

Unfortunately neither of the above oils tested great in the testing I last looked at, but the difference in $ is enough for a decent dinner.

Glen
 
comnoz said:
I know one thing.

Running the oil for 30 minutes at 220 degrees in a high shear situation before load testing it at 300 degrees has sure separated the "men from the boys" as far as oils go.

We now have a new king of the load capacity. Too much friction to be my choice in a Norton -but surprising just the same.
Nearly double the load capacity of the next highest at 300 degrees after putting it though the long test.
Any guesses? You've probably heard of it.
Click to expand...

C’mon Jim, don’t keep us in suspense too long!

And, a quick question if I may, on a practical level, what is the down side to high friction caused by the oil? In other words, what’s the actual symptom that would effect us?
 
MexicoMike said:
It would be good to know what oil meets "normal" conditions … IOW, if the oils were rated on a 1-10 scale, maybe any oil rated above, say, 5 would be suitable for normal use. Oils above 7 maybe for track use and oils at 10 for the IOM...or whatever. Just some thoughts... ;)
Click to expand...
Yes please! Maybe something like this is in the works, but this is a fascinating thread, and I'm looking forward to some clear conclusions. Yes, I know it's an oil thread, but this seems like good, original work to me! And I'm thinking I need to change from monograde to multigrade this winter, so I'd love to have an oil to aim for – including ones that are available here in the UK. Great work, anyway.
 
worntorn said:
5x3= 15 qts@ 18= $270 (royal purple xpr)
15qts @$4.50= 67.50( Mobil 1 15/50)
Dif = $202.25

Unfortunately neither of the above oils tested great in the testing I last looked at, but the difference in $ is enough for a decent dinner.

Glen
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More like $10/qt. for Mobil 1, 20W-50 synthetic motorcycle oil. Maybe you are buying automotive Mobil 1 for $4.50. Little zinc in that stuff. If you want to know about Mobil 1 car oil, just ring up Laurie, the owner of Web Cams. She’ll give you an earful.


https://www.amazon.com/PACK-Mobil-2...537283118&sr=8-2&tag=hydsma-20&ref=mp_s_a_1_2
 
Yes most of us will factor in cost v. utility and include where we live. Oil in UK/EU is a lot costlier than USA. Mobil1 V-Twin not that common here
or at least not as cost effective. So we need to know what is "good enough" for this side of the pond.
Second question is what about the hottest area of the engine "cooking" the oil so that that oil is degraded, no matter how much the oil cooler
either cools it or delivers it to the hot spot(s) at a lower temp.
 
Fast Eddie said:
C’mon Jim, don’t keep us in suspense too long!

And, a quick question if I may, on a practical level, what is the down side to high friction caused by the oil? In other words, what’s the actual symptom that would effect us?
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High friction oils create a lot of heat at the point of contact.

If the metal is well cooled, as in a water cooled engine, then there is little to worry about.

In an air cooled motor with very little reserve cooling capacity, this heat will raise the engine and oil temperature and reduce the oils viscosity.
 
Onder said:
Yes most of us will factor in cost v. utility and include where we live. Oil in UK/EU is a lot costlier than USA. Mobil1 V-Twin not that common here
or at least not as cost effective. So we need to know what is "good enough" for this side of the pond.
Second question is what about the hottest area of the engine "cooking" the oil so that that oil is degraded, no matter how much the oil cooler
either cools it or delivers it to the hot spot(s) at a lower temp.
Click to expand...

The hottest point is the exhaust valve spring pockets where the temp is normally well over 400 degrees.
Hard to fix that problem, but that is why I cool the oil that is going into the head. Hard to say how much it actually helps.
 
I keep hoping this effort will reveal some mid-priced oils that will keep my stock motor happy. We don’t really know what this journey is going to teach us.

It has drastically changed some of my notions about oil, oil temps, and my riding.

It has definitely challenged my belief about what is “good enough”. In the end each of us will have to decide this for ourselves. But having some data sure beats reading the ads.
 
comnoz said:
In an air cooled motor with very little reserve cooling capacity, this heat will raise the engine and oil temperature and reduce the oils viscosity.
Click to expand...


Exactly my findings on the 50 mile run at +90 mph from my house to Daytona Speedway, many times. And that's in March. When I would pull off the freeway my oil pressure gauge was hardly registering any oil pressure, at all. Under less strenuous conditions I would have ~10 psi at idle after being well warmed up, 55 psi at startup. When that oil is a thin as panther piss, I want the best oil I can get, even at $50/qt.

Never been to Isle of Man TT, but I would bet there is hardly any discernible difference of oil temps in a Commando with a lap at IOM TT and a 50 mile run near top speed.

Now, if you want to talk about a modern water cooled motorcycle and oil temperatures, that's a whole different kettle of fish. A 50 mile run at 90 mph is hardly straining that modern water pumper, hence much cooler oil than that of the Commando. Cooler oil at IOM, too.
 
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