Does an 850 Handle Better than a 750 ??

Looks like one up front.

For us road riders I believe that a good handling bike is one that you think is a good handler. If everything about it gives you confidence then the cornering is great fun.
If you are a bit unsure when riding it, then it will seem like it doesn't handle well. Another rider on that same bike might find it a perfect fit and be pleased with the handling.
So I suspect that handling is quite a subjective thing for us ordinary riders.

Glen

worntorn said:

For us road riders I believe that a good handling bike is one that you think is a good handler. If everything about it gives you confidence then the cornering is great fun.
If you are a bit unsure when riding it, then it will seem like it doesn't handle well. Another rider on that same bike might find it a perfect fit and be pleased with the handling.
So I suspect that handling is quite a subjective thing for us ordinary riders.

Glen

Click to expand...

Exactly as you say Glen. I'm willing to bet that 90% or so of riders out there have no idea what the limits of their bikes handling capabilities are but they'll still tell you why theirs is better than yours.

Danno said:

That might be an ISO up front, kinda hard to tell. Don't really see any other possibilities unless there's an underside unit aft of the primary. The swingarm does appear to be separated from the tubular frame. Could that be an ISO above the s/a pivot?

Click to expand...

Everything I have read says the Isos were used on all racers including the monocoque
Anyone know?

baz said:

Everything I have read says the Isos were used on all racers including the monocoque
Anyone know?

Click to expand...

Yes they were, the factory insisted on it to prove the concept. Also at the time a lot of races they entered were 200 miles or more, so the isolastics gave the riders an easier time

Seeley920 said:

Yes they were, the factory insisted on it to prove the concept. Also at the time a lot of races they entered were 200 miles or more, so the isolastics gave the riders an easier time

Click to expand...

Would have allowed them to use much lighter construction too, they’d have had to beef things up to avoid vibration related fractures otherwise.

worntorn said:

For us road riders I believe that a good handling bike is one that you think is a good handler. If everything about it gives you confidence then the cornering is great fun.
If you are a bit unsure when riding it, then it will seem like it doesn't handle well. Another rider on that same bike might find it a perfect fit and be pleased with the handling.
So I suspect that handling is quite a subjective thing for us ordinary riders.

Glen

Click to expand...

Handling is definitely a subjective thing, regardless of your ability or experience.

I raced a Fastback with Isolastics (shimmed tighter than standard).

I thought it handled fine, but when it shook its head on full lean I learned to just loosen my grip and let it, a rider not prepared to do that will have hated it!

I believe having the experience of riding it somewhere near its potential added to my skills!!

grandpaul said:

I'm not arguing that point.

All I was pointing out is, there will always be SOME amount of flex.

Maybe that's not a bad thing?

Click to expand...

I would not want to ride a bike with no flex, but how much is too much?

No idea, but you need some. There are two major problems with Isolastics.......

Most people riding Commando's don't know how to set them up properly for their riding needs.

Most people who rode them in the '70s compared them to a featherbed, which started an anti 'Commando handling' movement!

SteveA said:

I would not want to ride a bike with no flex, but how much is too much?

No idea, but you need some. There are two major problems with Isolastics.......

Most people riding Commando's don't know how to set them up properly for their riding needs.

Most people who rode them in the '70s compared them to a featherbed, which started an anti 'Commando handling' movement!

Click to expand...

I once read that original hearth brazed cast lug Scott rigid frames handle better than fully welded replica frames
Because there is no flex in the fully welded frame??

Danno said:

That might be an ISO up front, kinda hard to tell. Don't really see any other possibilities unless there's an underside unit aft of the primary. The swingarm does appear to be separated from the tubular frame. Could that be an ISO above the s/a pivot?

Click to expand...

The rear iso cap is visible just above and to the right of the clutch.

Ken

And you think youre Iso's are a bitch to adjust !






Like the ' air cooled ' clutch / primary set up , in danno's picture .

The Space Frame , despite the whingeing , set the style for the next five decades .





Seems wallowing in the muds not entirely productive .

You can JUST see the BOOT in there , tucked in behind the exhaust pipe curve .

Now if the turkeys had set up specific tube cutting jigs for each piece , It coulda binna ' production Line ' job . !



Pity they got the spelling wrong .

baz said:

I once read that original hearth brazed cast lug Scott rigid frames handle better than fully welded replica frames
Because there is no flex in the fully welded frame??

Click to expand...

I doubt there is 'no flex' but I am sure there would be 'less flex'.

But how can a welded frame be a 'replica' of a lugged frame.....if there are no lugs?

Matt Spencer said:

And you think youre Iso's are a bitch to adjust !

Norton 750 Monocoque/Spaceframe/Cosworth

Like the ' air cooled ' clutch / primary set up , in danno's picture .

The Space Frame , despite the whingeing , set the style for the next five decades .

Click to expand...

I think you are ignoring the reality of the design.

We would need to ask a man who actually adjusted the Isos, but my guess is that it would be easier than on a standard Commando.

If you remember that for maintenance the frame is lifted off of the engine, transmission and swinging arm unit, then the Isos should be out in the open.

BTW this one is a copy and lacks some of the original features, particularly on the cylinder head and the primary drive.

SteveA said:

I doubt there is 'no flex' but I am sure there would be 'less flex'.

But how can a welded frame be a 'replica' of a lugged frame.....if there are no lugs?

Click to expand...

I'm guessing the frame isn't an exact replica? IE no cast lugs?
I read this year's ago in classic bike or classic mechanics

Handling is definitely a subjective thing, regardless of your ability or experience.

I raced a Fastback with Isolastics (shimmed tighter than standard).

I thought it handled fine, but when it shook its head on full lean I learned to just loosen my grip and let it, a rider not prepared to do that will have hated it!

I believe having the experience of riding it somewhere near its potential added to my skills!!

Click to expand...

How would you consider it , in comparison to say a 750 sport duc.

In ancient times !? Roads in N Z were mostly chipseal ( The City M'Way was decided smoother rolled hot mix - however most city roads were still - > ) undulateing , bumpy ,
uneven in parts , degraded by semi's , particularly the road edges . Narrow bridges , generally out of kilter /plane with the approaches & exits .

THUUS , if The I.o.M. wasnt dissimilar say around 1970 - It proved something as to a machines ' all round ' capability . Something smooth even race tracks dont - > to the point
that machine comparisons can be severly missleading - compared to ' real world ' use .

65 Mile out of town , and 19 years age , Id hitched - walking between lifts - a lot ! . Studied the cambers bumps run offs , obstructions etc . ( we can blame the educational
driving instruction books ! ) . Worked out all the braking points & lines , usually a change in lean / line at transitions to & from , into bends etc etc . Was a rough ride though
a lot smoother on the Commando , however I found ' under pressure ' the Commando , requireing less physical restraint that the worked 61 T120 , was best left to its own
devices . a early Perception was the ' Solinoid Robot ' . You put in the right imputs and IT did the work . Not the scruff of the neck Triumph operation .

i wouldnt latch onto a Ducati ( darmah etc ) as Id thought The Norton might deviate excessively in comparison to the available real estate , not being as ridgid .

thus my continual gripe re Commando Chassis Ridgidity . Used to be defined as something like ' Axles Ability to stay in line .
Grabbing and wrenching with one whell secured , the norton definately had a degree of movement .
On Most Surfaces this was fine , but near warp speed it seemed that cambers etc had a decided influance on line .

that said - Most Obvious on the Dumlops - the Road Runners slid enough to not load the frame / sic. up as much . The Continentals were lethal .
Blankety great K70 on the rear , you sat on the rear , throttle wise. The turn in was good , throttle steer - cautiously .
the Dulops were LEAN , push the front down over to the scary point , watch it with the throttle .
BUT thats running tall gearing and compartively low RPM , Seldom on the cam ( Combat ) in town , when it was on it was off - like a scalded rabbit .

Warp Factor 6 Scotty . W.F.O. past 3500 .

Hit 1/2 throttle at 3:00 here , you wound up the hill cruising , 3rd , using your knees & elbows .
( This is later with the Hi rider Tank & roadster seat , where you could move around , earlier L R
Tank & fastback seat you wernt as securely installed . KR76 F K81 , Where were relating .
Not Bragadicio , but relateing the machines capeabilities . The Cambers were dictatorial )
3:42 Your 2/3 - 3/4 right , in your lane , hook second & 1/2 gas , and drop / crank it ' onto the bend '
( Run The Bend ) usually this is 40 / 45 . head up & turning , wary of every driveway , dog , ball & traffic .
SO , this was 3500 / 4.000 odd in 2nd on 23 tooth , pipe kissing ( bore the tracks ) slightly crossed up ,
steering on the throttle ( Judiciously - say 1/5th travel variation ) pretty constant radius - lifting up out
at 3:52 . UPRIGHT , Steady , Brake Firmly , dither - The R H Tight , if you were on the Right Half of the lane - you wernt on the bad undercamber .
In the DAMP it would always drift a quater lane , if you wernt inside the right third . Aleays came back as you went upright , but often within 18 inches
of the curb . So in any conditions was not a curb to press it on . Insane druged policemans sons on red X R 500 Hondas could power slide on the knogs
on the off camber corners through the bays . And have Big Avoidances when cars came out of side roads , as being city slickers they DIDNT SLOW DOWN IN THE VILLAGES .
Unlike us civilised properly brought up types .

Most of through there was a sh&t . But on quite days , commuting from Auckland Tech . The world was your oyster - or was it Isle of Man .



Jump to 5:20 when he goes for a widdle .

There were no parked cars , chicanes , roundabouts , or to many bimbos back in the 70s , or hairdressers . The drunks were only out at closing time .

At the same time , I threw it into a tight uphill right offcamber , and she drifted in and scrubbed round crossed up on throttle , and brakes till exit ,
round at 45 on the speedo tho I think roadspeed half that , no worries . But theyre SMOOTH only very mildly undulateing bends , The Video one in smooth 1/2 life granit chip seal back then ,
which gives broader limit feedback .

the jehovas Witness P-76 4.4 litre V-8 Triumph 2000 lived just up kohai road on the left at 8:45 . Fatals at it top intersection , and pissed H1 twerp dead in a ditch , drunk . back then .


WARY was the watch word , or you were liable to get it in the teeth . Hard . ' Ones Undivided Attention , even at the usual 2/3rd of that speed .

if you dropped it at 12.02 , wide , into the bend , youd run through steady over ( constant radius ) looking over your left knee for impediments , lift vertical at 12.20 . upright .
Tho it mayve gone through a little quicker than they .

12:50 was all off camber , unless you were within a foot or two of the curb . Where your knee or pegs were a bit approxamate to it . Id spent many hours waiting for the bus after school
at thje stop on the left out of their .
And did you know if you cross the plug wires on a Honda 500 , He will still ride off on it , no trouble .

Seems to be lost , till he comes out of the road a phyco vet put his twin spinner of the 80 foot cliff at 80 mph , after it'd got drowned at Okura when the tide came in . Was Haunting .
Ex kwacker thug lived along there , the Black Combat trade in wheelied up to into and along opposite his travel . The Silver Frame Dalton Fastback lived under the third on the Rt. after that .

After that the tapes a dead loss .

On the right there at 7:42 was where the young Newcombes were standing with there movie camera ( The film of the sparklimn water ' Waitamata ' around 67 .

This lots almost up the hill and over , from the last .



You can see the Govenments dipped out importimg all these forigners , television sets and refrigerators , as the course bettered the Isle of Man , and should have been cleared of all obsticals & impedimets .
Not much use for anything now . Drug dealers , There all on the turps , you cant get a parking space , and WHO would swim in the once presstine Harbour NOW .



The prestine contents of the shit pponds here are discharged there and destroyed most remains of the Marine Lie of my initial years .
6 parts in one million . Why thats only 1 cm x 1 cm x 6 cm per Cu M. Luverly . keep the pissed , theyll never know whats going on .

Pity they let them out . We need a fence around the place , NOT a motorway out North for the mindless swine .

Matt Spencer said:

How would you consider it , in comparison to say a 750 sport duc.

Click to expand...

Well, I was reminiscing this morning about my first race, prompted by a picture of an early '70s 750 Sport Ducati.

I started the behind one, and finished in front of it! I finished in front of it in the second race too!

Did my Commando handle better or worse?

Well, it didn't frighten me as much as the race start, and I was able to get by, so I guess it handled well enough.....

Will they stay with one of these on B grade roads , or is there to much camber steer ( the planes of camber in the roadway overwhelling the chassis .) ?


The good old days . and motorists thought the chain was for assault .
Have these got the better of the Commando , out in the mountains .

My views Rickman , seeley , then the eye talians got into the BIGGER TUBES ( Frame ) THOUGH the Oil tube BSA / Tri IS NOT LACKING in that respect . the Commando tends to ' Follow the camber '
when we are up and at em , does it not ? ( Or are all the rest no better ROADHOLDING . ( If its in the bushes it cant be said to be holding the road ) .

Well, it didn't frighten me as much as the race start, and I was able to get by, so I guess it handled well enough.....

Click to expand...

the Seeley there / or a COMMANDO chassis .
One thing , with the Norton , they can be ' more than the sum of there parts '

a lot of press in the era was obnoxious about the engineerings antiquity , Whereas current stuff can hardly said to be engineering , till your past say 50 grand . and THEN its obnoxious .

So , for what you paid , a Commando - as Sports / touring Bike , was as good as any , and better than most . If looked after and not abused .

I can say that the Commando and the Ducati don't have anything at all in common handling-wise.
The Ducati has a long wheelbase (1500mm vs 1440mm for the Commando), and the steering head angle is 60.5 degrees vs 63 degrees for the 750 Commando). My Seeley Mk 4 has a 1415mm wheelbase.
The 'handles as if on rails' description of Ducatis is accurate. What they don't say is 'just try changing direction'. They steer like an Ocean Liner.
On the track I guess this would give more confidence, except the ground clearance was a limiting factor, but on the road, minor corrections become a major effort compared to the Norton.
So the 'on the point of instability' philosophy really doesn't apply to the Ducati.

With regard to the Featherbed, it's been pointed out that they quickly disappeared from the tracks after the introduction of the Commando, and they weigh a ton in comparison (the Domi frame, at least).