Does an 850 Handle Better than a 750 ??

This has been discussed several times before but the 850 frames had an increase in the steering angle of one degree and unequal offset 'ANG' yokes (pictured, below) that increased trail, improving stability.

Does an 850 Handle Better than a 750 ??


Does an 850 Handle Better than a 750 ??


Does an 850 Handle Better than a 750 ??
 
APRRSV said:
Higher speeds meaning what MPH range?

What about lower speeds? Improved, equal or worse?
Click to expand...

I haven't ridden a 750 Commando so I can't offer any direct comparisons between the two.

I can only quote from the NOC Commando Service Notes as follows (I believe, written by Tim Stevens):

"In any case where a new frame is needed I would recommend the early 850 type frame....etc.
...The steering is more positive at high speed with the 850 geometry, but to get the greatest benefit you also need the 850 yokes...etc".
 
I've had both. For my money, the 750 handles better because of its steeper fork rake and its lesser trail. The 850 has a bit of a lazy feel to it in comparison.
 
I suggest reduced trail makes the bike more stable, i.e. more tendency to understeer in corners and more difficult to tip in.
As you change the trail, you move more towards self-steering at both ends of the spectrum. As you increase the trail, the bike tends to tip into corners more easily, and has less tendency to run wide as you apply power coming out . The downside of increased trail is the tendency to create an oscillation as you power down a straight piece of road. I don't think many Commandos have hydraulic steering dampers.
The first Commandos had steering geometry specified by Peter Williams - probably race steering - you should not give that to beginners - few guys crashed after running over cats' eyes on slippery roads. So the factory changed to geometry to make the bikes handle slower.
You probably should not think of steering geometry in terms of castor effect. It is more complex than that. With more trail the distance of the contact patch is further back from the vertical through the front axle. As the angle on the steering head changes when the rear of the bike goes down, the resultant force is due to addition of vectors - including the one which goes through the centre of the wheel
 
acotrel said:
I suggest reduced trail makes the bike more stable, i.e. more tendency to understeer in corners and more difficult to tip in.
Click to expand...

I've always understood that more trail increases stability!

www.rideapart.com

Unravelling the Mysteries of Rake and Trail

Rake, trail, and offset are terms we hear a lot on motorcycling, but what do they actually mean> Find out with this quick explainer.
www.rideapart.com www.rideapart.com
"Less trail reduces steering effort and high-speed stability, while more trail increases straight-line stability while increasing turning effort."

www.motorcyclecruiser.com

Playing the Angles

You have to understand the angles when dealing with the rake and trail of your bike and we will help clear the waters for you.
www.motorcyclecruiser.com www.motorcyclecruiser.com
"As rake and trail are reduced, the bike will become more maneuverable and quicker to respond to steering inputs. It’ll also develop a lighter feel at the handlebars. Unfortunately, it will also lose some of stability."
 
L.A.B. said:
I've always understood that more trail increases stability!

www.rideapart.com

Unravelling the Mysteries of Rake and Trail

Rake, trail, and offset are terms we hear a lot on motorcycling, but what do they actually mean> Find out with this quick explainer.
www.rideapart.com www.rideapart.com
"Less trail reduces steering effort and high-speed stability, while more trail increases straight-line stability while increasing turning effort."

www.motorcyclecruiser.com

Playing the Angles

You have to understand the angles when dealing with the rake and trail of your bike and we will help clear the waters for you.
www.motorcyclecruiser.com www.motorcyclecruiser.com
"As rake and trail are reduced, the bike will become more maneuverable and quicker to respond to steering inputs. It’ll also develop a lighter feel at the handlebars. Unfortunately, it will also lose some of stability."
Click to expand...
Yep it does increase stability
 
I'd have thought comparison from experience of our own rides will be very difficult. E.g., which tyres (and tyre width) we use, tyre pressures and their condition will have a major effect. I noticed much heavier steering when I moved to 4.10 Dunlops, vs 3.60, even though the 3.60s had some wear.
 
<----That sports an 850 front end with the raked triple trees on a 750 frame. It loves to turn.
 
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