clutch problems, what could cause this?

started installing the primary today, cleaned the clutch plates/basket, installed the basket/chain/sprocket, put clutch plates back in just as they came out, put the spring back on, it looks slight concave, put rod in with indent towards gear box, release arm in what i believe is the correct position, new clutch cable, put in adjuster and tried it all over the place, but i keep getting the same problem no matter what i try. With the gear box in gear, i pull the clutch in, i see the diaphragm move, but i cant move the rear wheel while holding the clutch in! this wasn't a problem before dissasembly, and all the clutch parts were reused. the stack does look a bit short, but like i said, wasn't a problem before. i also reused the spacers behind the clutch basket, and there was a washer and i think two thin spacers. could the alignment be off and cause this? could a short stack cause it? am i brain dead and not adjusting things correctly?

It sounds to me like the ramp that connects to the lower end of the cable has slipped out of place. It is hard to see with the transmission cover in place but the divot in the bottom of the ramp that is supposed to be straddling the ball is not in the correct position. Jim

comnoz said:

It sounds to me like the ramp that connects to the lower end of the cable has slipped out of place. It is hard to see with the transmission cover in place but the divot in the bottom of the ramp that is supposed to be straddling the ball is not in the correct position. Jim

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Jim,
that was my first suspicion. I checked it dozens of times, i put my fingers in there and would knock it out of place, then put it back, and keep doing that to try and get a feel for what was correct. I'm going to continue to investigate that assuming i may still not have it correct and don't know/realize it.
thanks

ok slight update, checked the arm again and made sure everything seemed to be in the correct position, adjusted everything how i believe it should be. pull the clutch, diaphragm moves in and out, but this time when i held the clutch in and tried to move the wheel, i could slightly move wheel, but it took some force and made some squeaky noise from the primary area. is it possible this isn't an adjustment problem? would an issue with the clutch bearing maybe cause this? i didn't change the bearing, and it seemed to spin fine when i had it off the bike. If i pull all the clutch plates out and leave the basket in place with the chain on i should be able to turn the real wheel regardless of being in gear of not correct?

kevbo82 said:

ok slight update, checked the arm again and made sure everything seemed to be in the correct position, adjusted everything how i believe it should be. pull the clutch, diaphragm moves in and out, but this time when i held the clutch in and tried to move the wheel, i could slightly move wheel, but it took some force and made some squeaky noise from the primary area. is it possible this isn't an adjustment problem? would an issue with the clutch bearing maybe cause this? i didn't change the bearing, and it seemed to spin fine when i had it off the bike. If i pull all the clutch plates out and leave the basket in place with the chain on i should be able to turn the real wheel regardless of being in gear of not correct?

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Yes that correct.

It must be something rubbing somewhere. Maybe a bent plate or a plate binding on the basket?

Make sure when you are adjusting the pushrod that the cable adjustment at the lever is backed completely off so the cam is at it's lowest position.
Most people end up with less than the specified end play in the pushrod to get clean disengagment. Jim

You didn't mention the circlip, but I'm assuming it's there. The stepped washer covers the circlip and then the spacers go on. I'd go through the complete clutch cable adjustment by the book. As Jim says, my clutch won't work right unless I use less than 1/4 turn backed off the rod. The actuating rod can be a real bear sometimes, it's just not that apparent. I hold it up with hemostats while messing with it.

Dave
69S

Dave,
i bought the later electric star circlip, good thing i got two of them, just pulled the clutch basket off, circlip was pushed out and messed up, i used blue loctite and around 40lbs of torque on the nut. I KNOW i didn't over tighten it, because i have no rear brakes hooked up, i tightened it on the center stand holding the rear wheel by hand, went to 40lbs, then gave it maybe another 1/4 turn to line up the tab washer. so i took the clutch plates out, still hard to turn the wheel, took the basket/chain/sprocket off, still the same, still hear noise from the sprocket/gearbox area. could it be a problem with the gearbox? i rebuilt it, but considering it's the first time i've ever done it, that could be worse than better lol. something doesn't feel right in the shift lever trying to change gears, i'm going to pull the outside cover to investigate that too. i was able to turn the main shaft and shift through all the gears with the gearbox out of the bike when i finished it.

Sounds like you have a GB issue. Without the clutch in there, things should be pretty smooth from the rear wheel. What happens when you have the GB in neutral? Drive chain rubbing? If you had the GB out, did you get that thick spacer back in on the drive side next to the cradle? Can you see up in the drive sprocket where the chain goes over it? Look up in there with a mirror back from the rear wheel sprocket. Make sure your swing arm is not hitting the inner primary. I'm just shooting in the dark here.

Dave
69S

i'll take any ideas i can get dave! so for the past week the bike has not had the primary on, but had a sprocket on the gearbox and chain going to the rear wheel. I've been rolling it around with no problems. then i put the inside primary on, still rolled around with no problems. yesterday put the clutch/sprocket/primary chain on, problem showed up. Now i've torn it down, primary is all off, down to gearbox sprocket, and chain to the rear wheel, GB in neutral, wheel is hard to turn, noise around the sprocket. took the chain off, rear tire is rolls fine, nothing bound up there. so it seems since i bolted on the clutch the sprocket on the gb is now hard to turn. Like i said, the circlip was all messed up when i took it apart, but i only torqued to 40ft/lbs. how hard should it be to run the sprocket by hand? the main shaft will spin inside it in neutral, and when i spin that i'm shifting gears okay, so the shifting problem i spoke of might actually be that when i was spinning the rear wheel and trying to shift things were too rough with the sprocket. what could have caused this and where should i look for a solution? could the potential over tightening of the clutch nut have effected something in the GB?

The sprocket should turn easily, even in gear, although you will feel the resistance of the gearing and bushes. I don't know what happened, but it sounds like something happened to your gearbox when you assembled everything. 40 ftlb on that circlip shouldn't matter at all, unless it's not tight in the groove. You didn't spring it too much getting it on? I just push mine on over the shaft without stretching them at all, and for sure don't re-use them. You can't get them off without messing them up, at least not me. But if you've got it down to the sprocket, you can see the clip now. I think you have to take it off anyhow to get the inner cover off to get at the sprocket?

If you rebuild the GB, it should operate and turn smoothly. I'd check that out.

Dave
69S

yeah brand new clip, one of the later electric start ones. i've got another one so i wont reuse this one, i put it right on the end of the shaft and slid it down till it popped into the groove. i can't turn the sprocket by hand now, just took the sprocket off to look around make sure a piece of the clip didn't get jammed in there, don't see anything. but i put the sprocket on and it takes a lot of force to turn in and it's rough. something happened to that sleeve gear i guess? looks like i'm taking the gearbox apart... :cry:

I agree about the problem is in the gearbox. Go over that entire gearbox assembly piece by piece and make sure all the bushes are good. You should be able to go through the gears and see that they are all meshing properly. If it is not letting the wheel turn in neutral it strongly indicates a gearbox issue. Check the cam plate to be sure that you have it in correctly and that you are actually in neutral.

drones76 said:

I agree about the problem is in the gearbox. Go over that entire gearbox assembly piece by piece and make sure all the bushes are good. You should be able to go through the gears and see that they are all meshing properly. If it is not letting the wheel turn in neutral it strongly indicates a gearbox issue. Check the cam plate to be sure that you have it in correctly and that you are actually in neutral.

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i can spin the main shaft and move it through the gears. it must have something to do with that circlip giving way when i put the clutch center nut on. is it possible the sleeve gear was pushed into the gearbox when that all happened? i wouldn't think there would be clearance in the gearbox for that to happen? also the sprocket spacer, should that sit flush with the oil seal?

As I remember that sprocket spacer (item 29 here http://www.oldbritts.com/1971_g5.html) is pretty flush with the seal. The seal lips should be on it. You might want to look at the bushes #17 between the main shaft and sleeve gear. The outer one is prone to moving around. I put loctite bearing retainer on mine. You should really have 3 in there. I put a thin washer on the mainshaft to keep it from moving out and being eaten by the circlip like I found when I pulled mine apart. I've got a part number if you want it.

Sounds like you need to get into that GB and see what is going on. OB has a nice write up on assembly. It's pretty straight forward, but the Hemmings DVD helps too.

Dave
69S

Ok, spacer for the sprocket is not flush with the oil seal, sits slightly back, don't think that looks right. Also when I look down the end of the main shaft inside the sleeve gear the bushing in there is sitting a good inch or so back from the end of the end of the sleeve gear where the main shaft comes through it. I'm thinking that should be sitting flush no? Don't know how this happened but looks to me like the problem

DogT said:

As I remember that sprocket spacer (item 29 here http://www.oldbritts.com/1971_g5.html) is pretty flush with the seal. The seal lips should be on it. You might want to look at the bushes #17 between the main shaft and sleeve gear. The outer one is prone to moving around. I put loctite bearing retainer on mine. You should really have 3 in there. I put a thin washer on the mainshaft to keep it from moving out and being eaten by the circlip like I found when I pulled mine apart. I've got a part number if you want it.

Sounds like you need to get into that GB and see what is going on. OB has a nice write up on assembly. It's pretty straight forward, but the Hemmings DVD helps too.

Dave
69S

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That looks exactly like what's going on. The shame is I did go through the whole gb when I had it out and replaced all the bearings , but none of the bushings because the gb looked like it had been gone over not too long ago, bunt I changed the bearings just to be sure

The end sleeve bush can side to outside enough to wear to crumbles its outer edge. Sticking a used 3rd in bewteen is old upgrade but newer bushes are longer so just two to take up most the slippage space. Not bad id to oil scroll em but just short of edge on outer bush. Its possible clutch basket or inner cover not spaced enough to avoid fouling backside of basket but its noisy obvious so not likely your hang up.

You really should have replaced all the bushings. Trouble is they need to be reamed/ground to size. Some are interference fit, and some are sliding fit. I think the OB site covers that. Like hobot says, the new longer ones for the mainshaft are better and more prone to stay in place, but I'd still use sleeve retainer on them.

We're coming up on the best riding weather you know.

Dave
69S

i guess my two big questions at this point are, what the heck caused these things to go askew, and where they the cause of the problem i was having? i took the gear box apart and did some tapping on the main shaft bearing, thinking thats the only thing that would let the spacer sit too shallow. i didn't notice any movement in the bearing, but the spacer is more flush now. Maybe i never got that bearing quite all the way? but wouldn't that bearing dictate the gear pairs being flush? i made sure when i put it together they were flush to each other, and see now that at least both 4th gears are flush.

If your bushings are moving around just pushing the bike around, think what is going to happen when you let the clutch out and the torque from the engine is pressed against them and the sprocket and the rear wheel. I'm thinking there's a clearance issue going on here, but I'm no expert in that area.

Those mainshaft bushings take the whole engine power to the rear wheel with some help from that mainshaft bearing.

Dave
69S