Capacitor

marshg246 · Feb 6, 2020

crusadersports said:
That's great Jim, many thanks. To return to the OP, a Mk 3 may or may not start on the capacitor. But if you have a 3 phase charging system, LEDS in the warning lights and electronic ignition you stand half a chance!

Actually, points stand a better chance than electronic ignition. With points, the coils draw power. With electronic ignition, the ignition and coils draw power and there must be enough to make the electronics work to control the coils.

The Mk3 has two warning lights on while kicking, others only have one (assuming you're starting on the stand and not brave enough to start in gear).

All will start on a hill or if you are young enough to bump start on flat land!

Many years ago, when way to poor to replace my battery, I added a capacitor to my Triumph 500. It would start by kicking, but I didn't bother. I would put it in second, pull the clutch, push as fast as I could, hop on an release the clutch and off I went. Of course, that was a much lighter bike.

jbruney · Feb 6, 2020

Tried push starting this 850 once and the booger had me winded long before I could master the art. I was 40 years younger then also, so I wouldn't even attempt it now.... Besides battery was almost flat about 2 months ago and she kicked off smartly. I use a wassell and didn't have the juice for the clock lights to even glow dimly, so something is at work there or twas the will of God.….
I also learned how to properly tune and maintain my scooter after the failed push start incident, which should have been lesson #1 prior to riding it in the beginning of our relationship. I shall promptly repair that capacitor if it ever fails.

crusadersports · Feb 7, 2020

marshg246 said:
Actually, points stand a better chance than electronic ignition. With points, the coils draw power. With electronic ignition, the ignition and coils draw power and there must be enough to make the electronics work to control the coils.

The Mk3 has two warning lights on while kicking, others only have one (assuming you're starting on the stand and not brave enough to start in gear).

All will start on a hill or if you are young enough to bump start on flat land!

Many years ago, when way to poor to replace my battery, I added a capacitor to my Triumph 500. It would start by kicking, but I didn't bother. I would put it in second, pull the clutch, push as fast as I could, hop on an release the clutch and off I went. Of course, that was a much lighter bike.

Thanks Marsh, but ain't going to be converting back to points to test the theory! My ignition warning is already an LED battery status monitor, so finding another LED
for the neutral light is top of the list before I see if it'll start on the capacitor. If it won't start on the kick start it doesn't count. Bump starting an Interstate does not appeal, whatever your age!

marshg246 · Feb 7, 2020

crusadersports said:
Thanks Marsh, but ain't going to be converting back to points to test the theory! My ignition warning is already an LED battery status monitor, so finding one for the neutral light is top of the list before I see if it'll start on the capacitor. Bump starting an Interstate does not appeal.

Personally, I would not worry about the neutral light, or I would simply pull one of the two connectors.

Technique is even more important than usual. Get the engine at compression and ease it just pass. Then kick firmly. That will ensure that there is voltage available when the next power stoke happens.

You might even see your battery monitor some to life in the process.

BTW, tested yesterday on a 74 with Tri-Spark, PODtronics, standard stator, new rotor, LED oil pressure light (replaces ignition light), 10,000uf new capacitor, battery disconnected. Bike started first kick just like it does with the battery. It had been two days since it was last started.

crusadersports · Feb 8, 2020

marshg246 said:
Personally, I would not worry about the neutral light, or I would simply pull one of the two connectors.

Technique is even more important than usual. Get the engine at compression and ease it just pass. Then kick firmly. That will ensure that there is voltage available when the next power stoke happens.

You might even see your battery monitor some to life in the process.

BTW, tested yesterday on a 74 with Tri-Spark, PODtronics, standard stator, new rotor, LED oil pressure light (replaces ignition light), 10,000uf new capacitor, battery disconnected. Bike started first kick just like it does with the battery. It had been two days since it was last started.

Thanks for the thoughts Marsh. Yes the battery status monitor should probably flicker as the engine is kicked over. Good to hear it works fine in your experience with electronic ignition too. Do you have a link for the 10,000uf new capacitor you have?
Does the bike idle ok like that, because if not it could be a little entertaining replacing the fuse....

maylar · Feb 8, 2020

crusadersports said:
Do you have a link for the 10,000uf new capacitor you have?

https://www.amazon.com/United-Chemi...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=D2X9T32WWDSPDGBY7HVH

crusadersports · Feb 8, 2020

Tried mine today. Removed the bulb from neutral light and also the fuse, and gave it a boot several times. Battery status LED flickered green but no spark at plug. Fuse back in and sparks a plenty. LED voltmeter indicating between 4 and 5 volts each time I kicked it. Interesting the voltmeter works each kick, but it is LED, as I say.

Diagnosis ? Duff capacitor? Obviously something coming from alternator, but maybe not enough? Presumably it needs 12 volts to generate a spark?

Set up is Pazon, Sparx 3 phase stator, rotor and regulator/rectifier. Yes I know the Sparx stuff is frowned on but it charges the battery fine!

marshg246 · Feb 8, 2020

crusadersports said:
Tried mine today. Removed the bulb from neutral light and also the fuse, and gave it a boot several times. Battery status LED flickered green but no spark at plug. Fuse back in and sparks a plenty. LED voltmeter indicating between 4 and 5 volts each time I kicked it. Interesting the voltmeter works each kick, but it is LED, as I say.

Diagnosis ? Duff capacitor? Obviously something coming from alternator, but maybe not enough? Presumably it needs 12 volts to generate a spark?

Set up is Pazon, Sparx 3 phase stator, rotor and regulator/rectifier. Yes I know the Sparx stuff is frowned on but it charges the battery fine!

I read somewhere that the Pazon has some sort of sleep mode and takes a short while to wake up once the ignition is on. I have no idea if that's true, but if it is, you'll probably not get it started kicking.

Also Tri-Spark says it needs 8-16 volts. Pazon Sure Fire and Boyer Mk3 seem to require 10-16 volts (best I can find, they don't seem to publish specs).

marshg246 · Feb 8, 2020

crusadersports said:
Thanks for the thoughts Marsh. Yes the battery status monitor should probably flicker as the engine is kicked over. Good to hear it works fine in your experience with electronic ignition too. Do you have a link for the 10,000uf new capacitor you have?
Does the bike idle ok like that, because if not it could be a little entertaining replacing the fuse....

Starts and idles. I notice that someone already reposted the Amazon link to the capacitor.

crusadersports · Feb 8, 2020

marshg246 said:
I read somewhere that the Pazon has some sort of sleep mode and takes a short while to wake up once the ignition is on. I have no idea if that's true, but if it is, you'll probably not get it started kicking.

Also Tri-Spark says it needs 8-16 volts. Pazon Sure Fire and Boyer Mk3 seem to require 10-16 volts (best I can find, they don't seem to publish specs).

Thank you Marsh. Beginning to think I have an alternator problem, as 4 to 5 volts volts is surely way below what it should be.

Glad to hear yours ticks over happily whilst running on the capacitor. Any issues replacing the fuse, which I assume you can do as soon as it's running?

Otherwise the risk is you forget to replace it at all!

comnoz · Feb 8, 2020

crusadersports said:
Thank you Marsh. Beginning to think I have an alternator problem, as 4 to 5 volts volts is surely way below what it should be.

Glad to hear yours ticks over happily whilst running on the capacitor. Any issues replacing the fuse, which I assume you can do as soon as it's running?

Otherwise the risk is you forget to replace it at all!

I have not tested it but I doubt the digital Pazon will start without a battery.

But I suspect the Pazon Surefire will because it is very similar to a Boyer analogue.

jbruney · Feb 8, 2020

You guys have kept this going and got my curiosity going so I'm pulling my fuse tomorrow to see if mine will pop off with the Wassell. I know it'll go with almost no voltage but don't know if it can with none...….

crusadersports · Feb 9, 2020

comnoz said:
I have not tested it but I doubt the digital Pazon will start without a battery.

But I suspect the Pazon Surefire will because it is very similar to a Boyer analogue.

Thanks Jim. Sorry, should have said it is indeed a Pazon Surefire. Does a reading of 4 to 5 volts while performing this test indicate an alternator problem? Is it worth trying another capacitor?

Jbruney, how did yours test?

kommando · Feb 9, 2020

marshg246 said:
I read somewhere that the Pazon has some sort of sleep mode and takes a short while to wake up once the ignition is on. I have no idea if that's true, but if it is, you'll probably not get it started kicking.

All the EI's have a sleep mode but the Pazon is sleepier than the rest and needs 2 signals to wake up and not a single one like the Boyer and presumably the Tri-spark.

grandpaul · Feb 9, 2020

That's a toughie, getting 2 full strokes on a Commando with a single kick!

Well, for a 145# guy, anyway...

marshg246 · Feb 9, 2020

kommando said:
All the EI's have a sleep mode but the Pazon is sleepier than the rest and needs 2 signals to wake up and not a single one like the Boyer and presumably the Tri-spark.

So, do I understand correctly, a Pazon is unlikely to start on the first kick even with a battery?

kommando · Feb 9, 2020

marshg246 said:
So, do I understand correctly, a Pazon is unlikely to start on the first kick even with a battery?

Depends on how you kick, I first came across this issue on a local B50 that the owner could not kickstart it but could bump start, I could kickstart it but was 20 years younger, 2 stones heavier and 6 inches taller so the crank got far enough on my kick to get to tdc and a spark. If you press the kill switch just before kicking when you have a battery then that wakes it up for 5 secs so enough time to get that kick in. Does not help with a capacitor though, but bump starting should still work.

ludwig · Feb 9, 2020

kommando said:
.. the Pazon is sleepier than the rest and needs 2 signals to wake up and not a single one like the Boyer and presumably the Tri-spark.

If so, wouldn't it then be harder to kickstart even with a battery?
I have started with a Surefire more than once on a capacitor ( 6800 Mf) but I have no idiot lights that draw power.

(edit: overlooked marshg246's reply)

kommando · Feb 9, 2020

ludwig said:
If so, wouldn't it then be harder to kickstart even with a battery?
I have started with a Surefire more than once on a capacitor ( 6800 Mf) but I have no idiot lights to draw power.

Again it depends on how hard you can kick, as for 'If so' its documented in their technical details. Note the box is the same for twins but twins are easier to kick over so less likely to be an issue.

http://www.pazon.com/ignition-system/sure-fire-british-single-12volt.html

Important note for owners of big single/high compression models (e.g. B44/B441/B50):
The Sure Fire system requires a minimum cranking speed before sparks are produced (typically 100-150rpm). This kit can be fitted to these models, but due to the potential of difficulty in kick-starting, we recommend fitting a digital ignition system, e.g. Smart Fire PD1 system. Due to the triggering method, our digital systems fire from zero rpm upwards, so more suited to bikes that are more difficult to kick-start.

comnoz · Feb 9, 2020

crusadersports said:
Thanks Jim. Sorry, should have said it is indeed a Pazon Surefire. Does a reading of 4 to 5 volts while performing this test indicate an alternator problem? Is it worth trying another capacitor?

Jbruney, how did yours test?

I doubt another capacitor will help, unless your's is an original, in which case it's likely to be dried out.
A kicking voltage reading is not going to be accurate unless your using a scope. The reading on a voltmeter is going to depend on the damping of the meter.
But I suspect kommando is right.

Capacitor

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