boyer oh boyer

Here's .02 "merican;
Saw a "programable" Crane Cams igition set-up for Harley Davidsons the other day. It looked like it might be adaptable to a Norton, but---- the price was about $500. Guess when you drop $20k on a Harley you don't mind spending another fiver to make it go.

Scooter

Guest (whoever you are?!):

If a 1970 H*rley f'ing Davids*n can have one of these: http://cranecams.com/index.php?show=bro ... 5&prt=2084, I'm with you on wondering why we can't. Our bikes are *waaay* cooler, damnit! Even the lower end models have adjustable advance curves, rev limiters and independent 2nd cylinder timing. There's also a kickstart/electric start mode that eliminates kickback. (The position of the pick-up poles may be the only thing preventing the use of one of these on a Norton. I'm itching to get my hands on one so I can measure it and see.)

Nortonfan:

Poser, eh? :lol: Those're SuperVenoms my friend.

I agree that Boyers are a worthy upgrade for stock and mildly modified Brit bikes. Their simplicity reminds me of the Pertronix I put on my 1976 Corolla (in 1986). Nothing fancy, but it cut down on maintenance and improved gas mileage.

There's an old Russian saying, "Better is the enemy of good enough." Ironically, when translated to English, the saying could be interpretted as "leave well enough alone." However, in Russian, it means that one should never become complacent and should continually work to improve upon the current setup. Since I love thinking and tinkering - the philosophy fits me well.

BTW, isn't Kelly Cork one of your countrymen? Seems that's his approach too.

Derek:

Oh, I own plenty of bikes and ride plenty of miles on the Kitsap Peninsula. 'Cept all those bikes have pedals.

My teardown project began in late November and the target date for completion is the INOA Rally in Oregon. I'll bring the f**ing thing there in a trailer if I have to!

Most relevant to this thread, it'll likely have an *old, dodgy, vanilla Boyer MkIII ignition* on it when it gets there.

Dr_Hiller

I am in no way implying that you are a "poser". It was a general comment.

What I meant was, there are a few out there that put all this stuff on their commandos & still do not get the benefit after paying out all the extra cash. Sure, the bike looks impressive to some, but mostly they do not get around a mountainous road any quicker than us old blokes with our K81s & "old boyers".

Derek has suggested that also I notice. Personally I am not "bulletproof" these days & ride within my limits. I guess if I was still young & knew I would "bounce" if I dropped my bike, then I may pay the extra for "SuperDuperVenoms" And I understand that you are going to race this commando of yours, so you have a valid reason to use them.

"Kelly Cork" lives just an hour away along a great mountainous road. I did take your fellow countryman "norbsa48...." to meet him while he was staying at my home. Kelly is an intelligent & humble man, a great bloke. Norbsa was thrilled to meet him & some other "clever" norton men in Australia.

Your Project is looking good & I do hope you post some photos when it is "done", we all know a norton is never quite "done" though. There is always something new to work on/fix

advance mechanisms

an interesting point about mechanical advance/retards,is the japs were using little hard rubber blocks to stop the type of wear described.Of course the next step for them was electronic ignition so little rubber blocks became redundent,but it is an idea that would work well for pommie bikes.

Boyer failures

Glad to read all of the traffic on Boyer ignition. Think you have had problems? Try 3 times in one day. Recently I got a 73 850 Mk2 in good stock condition, not running, came with a Boyer fitted and a new spare.

We got the bike cleaned up and running mainly by replacing the wiring harness. We put the new Boyer in and it ran fine. For a while. Then starting got harder and popping and spitting back came on and then misfiring.

Believing crap in the tank was a likely cause I cleaned out the tank, yes it had rust and scale and one tap had no mesh, and for the second time stripped and cleaned the single Amal ( on a Norvil dual manifold) added in line filters.

On completion of the fuel system hygiene, the bastard refused to start. Off came the plugs - no spark. Out came the multi-meter and light probe. Given the new harness, all the connections tested good and there was 12 plus volts in everything. From the Blue White lead into the Boyer white lead, but nothing on the Black to coil output lead. Coils checked fine, pickups in the timing case fine, and the kill switch on the handlebar was fine too.

This is getting bad. So a call to Mr Mears who knows everything about Commandos and this caused some perplexed thoughts as very few of us have had a bad experience with Boyers, so off came the first Black Box and in went the original unit. Same story, no spark at the plugs.

On to the 3rd unit, off a crashed 850 sitting in his shed for 15 years. An older Boyer model but was working until the prang. Fitted this and got sparks!

The big worry is - how long is this going to hang in? Kind of reduces the confidence factor in going a long way in Western Australia as there is a whole lot of nothing between very distant petrol stations. Carrying a spare (proven to work) black box is now a desirable must.

Any thoughts on the new Boyer Micro Digital model with high energy coils?

Perhaps a points and condenser ignition system would provide the necessary confidence to take that long motorcycle trip. Or, as you say, carry a spare or two Boyer.

A points ignition system should work flawlessly and without any adjustments for at least 12,000 kilometers or so.

Jason

points ignition

Hi Jason,

The points work fine for a long time. The problem I always had was the auto advance mechanism (mechanical). The '72 version had a tech release out suggesting changing to the '73 version which on my first '72 was covered under warranty. The bob weights, center platform and the springs tend to wear quickly and not perform their ignition advance function as intended. No moving parts to wear on the electronic systems is best.

Illf8ed,

Thanks for the information on the faulty points advance mechanism. QUESTION: How can you tell the difference between the defective '72 and the later model mechanisms?

Jason

Fuel to the Fire

No doubt about it electronic ignition is the norm for all new cars and motorcycles; it has achieved a level of reliability that precludes questioning its use (not that we've got a choice anyway). So how come the Boyer Box is getting such negative reviews here? Hasn't Boyer improved their product over the years, is it poor workmanship, inferior components? Why isn't the Boyer a reliable product? Or is it just getting a bad rep because of a few bad units? Maybe we need to see if Crane Cams can make a unit for the Norton. I can't imagine it would take much effort on their part or would there be such a low demand they couldn't make any money? My guess there are at least as many Nortons on the road today as there are panheads. Maybe even more than all the pre Evos combined (if you think Nortons were unreliable you should have had a pre-evo Harley)

Scooter
(into a painfully slow resto on an 850)

Having used Boyers in a number of my nortons over many years, I am very happy with their reliability. The only time they have "let me down" is when I have been sloppy with my wiring connections/installation for which I can only blame myself.

Maybe someone on the forum can tell us if it is possible to "damage" the black box by inadvertently wiring it up incorrectly. Is it possible that some of these "bad" boyers were wired negative to positive by mistake. Could this cause them to "die" a bit quicker ?

Jason never misses an opportunity to tell the forum how bad they are, whenever the topic of boyer comes up. It would appear that Jason has had a bad experience with the boyer. (This not a personal attack Jason, just an observation)

But, I am sure that there are many boyer users that are blissfully unaware of how "bad" they are & thoroughly recommend using the boyer "maintenance free" system like myself.

And I'm not alone... In fact, the Bad Boyer Club is growing!

I would still like to know how to identify the faulty 72 advance mechanism. My concern is that I may have one of these units in my spare engine.

Jason

Cheers

Jason,

Repeat after me.........

"Boyers are Good, Boyers are Good.

I was just unlucky to get a fried one,
I was just unlucky to get a fried one.

Boyers really are a good thing,
I just have to put one back in,
I must throw those old points away,
This will get rid of points maintenance day !
Instead, I'll be cruising on down the highway.

It's all very clear, nortonfans' giving me no bum steer
Everything he's said, has been in good cheer "

Nortonfan
I second your emotion. Boyers have their ticks...but they are certainly much better than, for example, the points in an old Volvo I have. The points have to be reset monthly. I'd give my eyeteeth for a Boyer type conversion for that stinker...Hmmmmmm.
Not a bad idea...maybe Jason will send me his unwanted units and after I put one in my Norton....I can hook the others up in series and set that Volvo on it's feet again.....kill two birds with one stone...so to speak.

Jason,

You seem to be under the misconception that only the '72 auto advance mechanisms wear. They are all the same. They ALL wear and quickly. When I bought my '73 it was part of the winter ritual to pull the auto advance disassemble it and coat the slots and pins with molykote in an effort to slow the wear (along with the throttle slides). After a few years I discovered the Boyer. It has been in that bike for many, many years with no maintenance and still idles at a steady 800 rpm. Something it never did with the stock AA unit.

Ron,

Illf8ed mentioned that there was a problem with the '72 advance unit and that Norton replaced these under warranty. So, I wanted to make sure that the new advance mechanism that I installed in my spare engine was not the defective '72 unit.

I realize that that the advance unit will wear; all dynamic components will wear over time. But if the lobe on the advance unit is made from hard steel and if it gets a bit of periodic lubrication, the advance unit will perform to my expectations for quite some time.

And for you poetry fans: If Emily Dickinson owned a Norton with a Boyer she may have been inspired to write:

"I heard a fly buzz when my Boyer died"

Jason

points vs boyer

Hi Jason,

Wow, a lot of response since I posted about the '72 auto advance unit. The AAs I have are all date stamped on the side facing the camshaft.
I'm not really sure what the defect was for the '72 unit, but the symptoms were the engine would not idle and this was on a new Commando, so carbs were not an issue. Pretty embarassing having your engine die at a light when also being a rookie at starting the thing.

The question from another about Boyer upgrading/improving over the years...not likely, these things are made in England remember.

Illf8ed,

Thanks for the date-stamp info; I'll look around on my advance unit for a '72.

Jason

Boyer Ignition

Greetings all, new to the forum, live in West Texas have a 71 Commando Highrider and a 73 850 Commando. I have to say that after reading some of the posts I am now scared on installing the Boyer Ignition. My bikes are running outstanding but decided to install a BI as I originally thought they were more reliable??? The ignition is still in the box and I am most likely just going to leave it there. The only problem I am experiencing and would probably say its more of an inconvenience is that when I stop the idle creeps up from 1K to about 1800-2000rpm. Thinking it might be the autoadvance??? Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks and looks like a great forum. semper fi

West Texas

Anyone in this forum living in West Texas? semper fi

Howdy there devildog,

The idle creep you are experiencing is carburetion, not ignition. Is it the 850 that creeps? Is it more pronounced with a warmer engine?

It sounds like your throttle slide is slide is too rich. If it's an 850 engine you should have #3-1/2 slides installed in the carbs.

Jason