Born Again Bikes Experience

Jerry,

I am not going to re-post the original, unless you would request I do so. I only meant to inform members that they can get the original from me.

In my view, you made a mistake this morning. Proves you are part of the human race. I think the problem is that deleting the posts would cause some to ask if you have a horse in this race.

I don't like horses- I am allergic to them
I am ok if you re-post. You decide.

Hopefully that hurricane only takes out the Republican convention. There, that should change the subject. Have a great ride Jerry!

I did some searching on GrandPaul to see if there were other internet reports of similar negative experiences to the two that I have seen voiced on this forum

All I managed to find was a thread about a Triumph resto from a few years back. The owner was extremely happy with that one, said it ran great and it certainly looked nice in the final photos. The price was very reasonable, too low actually, but we consumers rarely complain about that!
It was basically a pile of rat droppings with a Triumph emblem on the tank at the start of the job, looked good enough for a show at the end.



Glen

"We discuss venders all the time, we make positive and negative comments about people and companies selling
both goods and services here, all day long."

+1 Have to agree Highdesert
Hungry joe's original written experience surprised me as in detail it contained no malice! For a man who has bayonet fixed for work, came across very gentleman like!
Any firms best advert is their last job completed!
foxy

I didn't have issue with the original post. When users of the forum mention "horse whipping", "Jerry should ban him" and worse that is where I get pissed off. No need for that kind of feedback or talk. What are you all thinking? Come on be civil at least. That is when I interjected.

You shouldn't feel bad Jerry. You have a responsibility to maintain a safe site and protect the members as a hole,that includes GP. As the administrator, It is up to you to make the call, no one else's. It is not always black and white. I read the original posts and felt a little uncomfortable. I can imagine a new Norton owner coming on board and this is the first thing they see and it's "see ya later". Not good.

It's YOUR call Jerry. I totally respect you for the tough decisions you and only you have to make. Well done!

On an unrelated note. Since the new server, this site is beautiful. It seems to snap. The colors and text are bright and the system seems very responsive and stable. To you and your team, Thank you.

absolutely no one should be protected from legitimate and documented valid criticism, no one

I hear ya Jerry. My Cosentino thread was heading in that direction before cooler heads prevailed. Maybe in the future post a comment in the thread, and email "horse whipping " person with a warning. Then people will have been warned of your concerns, and can't act surprised when you shut it down. Oh yeah, and people who can't communicate like adults should go sit at the kids table.

Jerry
I know you and Les have a tough job with some on here and as stated I have seen foul language and heated arguments that have resulted in name calling and I also have had post's censored and even deleated. BUT it was an over reaction to deleat the whole thread. I have been in a debate with another member where I was accused of several things because he could not prove me wrong . All tho I never stoopped to name calling or accusations on my part. The same poster has used foul language in other threads with nothing said so far.

I also have proof of the the incompetence of the builder of Hungery Joes bike as I have stated on here several times after helping both of them out of of a bad situation. When some one comes on here and sells them self as a professional in the restoration business. Uses this forum as a sales tool along with constantly posting what they are building for a client and we cannot call them out for what they really are than I have very little respect for the way it is being run.

I did not call out this builder on the forum as he did what he need to do to make it right BUT after seeing this pro continuously making mistakes I felt it was only the right thing to call him out. as stated if we can praise the good guys than we also need to be able to warn people of the bad ones also.

Hi Jerry

You do a great job on this site and I think you did the right thing we are here to enjoy our Nortons and if you decided to remove a post you have the right to, what gets up my back is you shouldn't get abusive emails from other member, they should just get over it, they all forget what a great job you and Les do, but how come we didn't get a response from GP he is always on this site and should have a chance to have his say but all of a sudden he has gone quite, a good bussiness man should always help his costomers out and make things good again and if you don't then how do you expect to stay in bussiness???

Ashley

When Grandpaul posted that he used Loctite on the head fasteners, that was it for me. I needed no more proof that he should not have a wrench in his hand, even for himself, let alone paying customers.

highdesert said:

absolutely no one should be protected from legitimate and documented valid criticism, no one

Click to expand...

I agree but where is the line. Lets say you have legitimate and documented paperwork, Great. But when it's presented here on the forum it is hardly more than opinion, hearsay and quite frankly if not proven in a court of law, boarder line slander.

Any lawyer will tell you, it doesn't matter if it true or not, it's what can be proven. If such documentation exist of misrepresentation and settlement obtained, then I would say share such evidence to back said opinion. Otherwise, go see a lawyer.

I recall being slapped around for just this sort of behavior, bitching about obvious inadequacies. Just sharing my opinion.

Here is my opinion. If you are not mechanically incline enough to care for these relatively simple machines or are unable or unwilling to learn, then you are living with the risk of having to trust unauthorized service people.and should except the risk. Otherwise, take up knitting.

These bikes are special and I wish everyone could experience the feeling I get when I ride it.
But, If "IF's' and "but's" were candy and nut, then everyday would be Christmas.
If you CHOOSE to pick up the ball, you better be ready to run.
The most important Norton tool is common sense.
I learning to preface everything I say with some sort of disclaimer.

Hows about a list of all Documented Authorised Norton Maintanance Profeesionals and all other opinions disclaimed. Is that the way we want it to be?
You pussies are pissing me off. :lol: :lol: :lol:

group hug :roll:

here is the original post - from HJ, who i'm sure felt slighted that he was insinuated to be a "slanderer etc" - if he ask or, Jerry wishes delete it (or ask me to and i gladly will too) -

Several people have asked that I share my Born Again Bikes experience. It's a shop in Texas run by Paul Zuniga (Grandpaul on the forums).

Purpose of this isn't to start a vendetta or flame war, just give my honest assessment of my involvement as a client and hopefully keep emotion out of it.

I purchased my '75 850 Mk III as a diassembled basketcase off a craigslist ad from a guy in San Antonio in July 2008. A friend of mine who lives there checked out the bike for me to ensure all the pieces were there and transfer the payment. The seller mentioned that he was in touch with Grandpaul who had been very helpful answering questions about the bike, and that Paul had good references and he was located nearby. I checked out several of Grandpaul's projects... at the time he was posting in depth progress updates on his builds on various forums around the web. Lots of interaction with people, and I appreciated the transparency in which he conducted his business. As he had multiple vintage British restorations under his belt, including several Commandos, I assumed he was knowledgeable.

We had a few phone conversations and Paul seemed on the level. In retrospect I should have contacted some of his clients independently on my own. Paul's prices were good... not unbelievable raise my suspicion bargain basement good, but seemed reasonable. Bike was supposed to be completed in spring of 2009 with plenty of shakedown time (thus would begin a routine pattern of overpromising and underdelivering). The completion definitely stands out in my mind, as I was supposed to leave for a military deployment in June 2009 and the bike was to be completed around April to leave me plenty of time before I left to enjoy it.

The bike had a ratty roadster tank and no seat along with only one sidecover. I wanted a cafe rebuild, and Paul was to obtain rearsets along with a Manx style seat and tank, taking the unused stock components in trade. Due to the missing sidecover, I also asked for a open frame look to the bike, with a low slung center mounted oil tank. Paul said he had several such tanks to fit 'no problem' and he would design a custom battery mount as well.

Initially the build progressed well until around mid-winter when delays started setting in. When asked, Paul would promise progress updates in the next week, yet two or three weeks would pass and I would have to contact him again only to receive the same reply of progress just around the corner. Occasionally there would be an update accompanied with a request for another cash draw. Around this time posts on this forum showed that Chip's bike, which had been completed around the time mine was started, was delivered with some significant issues (how significant I would not realize until mine had already been delivered and I started corresponding with Chip). Furthermore Paul started asking that further payments only come in money order, although my checks had never had an issue clearing, and I started to get a bit nervous about actually seeing my bike again.

Paul also let it drop around this time that it was not possible to source the tank, seat, or rearsets as suppliers were out for an indefinite period of time. I started calling around and had to source those parts myself and have them shipped to Paul. Furthermore, design changes cropped up... although I had been sent a nifty CAD diagram, the promised centermounted oil tank turned into a stock tank rotated 90 degrees and stuffed into the frame. I expressed skepticism that the polished aluminum tank could be clearcoated, Paul guaranteed his guy could do it, although later had to recant on that too. I had to start going through the spreadsheets to point out items that I had purchased and shipped to Paul myself (and was being doublebilled for) and parts that he was now taking and not crediting (such as the stock footpegs I had paid to have rechromed).

After the deliver date of April came and went I was not comfortable taking the bike so close to my deployment. After reading about Chip's experience I wanted plenty of time to shakedown the bike. We agreed on a late summer/early fall delivery which, as Paul said, would give him plenty of time to ride the bike and ensure all issues were worked out.

I returned stateside a few months later and took delivery in September 2009. Although I was relieved that I actually had a bike by this point, immediately it was clear the bike was done with a bit of 'whatever works' mindset and was not up to most standards of professional restorations. The battery was sitting on a loose rubber pad held down to the cradle with a bungee cord, wires and terminals exposed. When purchased the bike came with no starter and I planned on just using the kickstart to save some nickels; Paul had covered the hole with a bent and beat up Triumph clutch inspection cover. The handgrips were very crudely cut by hand where the bar ends would screw in. The tank was tied to the frame with a piece of leather instead of a proper rubber hold down.

It was also clear the bike had received very little attention after assembly, despite Paul's promises of the good use he would make of the extra months. The Amals were extremely maladjusted and the bike only ran on one cylinder; the float height on one side was so high the needle would never seat and gasoline flooded out when the taps were opened. The clutch was not properly adjusted and dragged horribly. The electrical wire was cheap and undersized, the insulation shrank and actually snapped the positive ground to battery on one of the early rides leaving me stranded. The transmission mount bolt was missing a spacer, the spring tension of the cradle would quickly back off the nut completely and leave the bolt free. The yoke steering stem nut was not secured with anything and had almost backed completely off when I discovered this and lockwired. One of the shocks quickly broke free from it's bushing. After one ride discovered the rear wheel had a film of oil all over; came into the garage the following morning to find the bike had pissed oil out of seemingly *everywhere*. The motormite PCV had failed (while an XS PCV solved an amazing amount of the oil leakage, the bike still has issues in that department). On and on and on. It was also clear the 'whatever works' mentality applied to the fasteners... various mixes of whitworth, SAE, and metric were all over the bike in improper places.

Worst of all though was the inattention to the assembly. Bike would wetsump the oil tank completely in the matter of a few days AND drain the oil into the primary. This meant the primary cover had to come off if the bike sat for a long weekend; Paul insisted the bike had never wetsumped on his watch. The bike started smoking out the left cylinder after about 200 miles. Discovered the inlet valve seal had apparently backed off (more on that to follow), which I replaced. In the process, I discovered one of the valve springs was broken; Paul sent a replacement and this was the only substantial piece of 'warranty' ever received. When going to retorque down the head after a few hundred miles, discovered one of the studs had stripped out. I quickly determined Paul had installed it in upside down, leaving the 'short end' in the barrel with insufficient thread to hold the torque. Flipping it over there was still some good thread in the barrel... Paul's suggestion was to use red loctite before applying proper torque, clearly not understanding that loctite has no impact on the ability of a stud to hold torque.

Gremlins refused to be vanquished. Bike started belching black smoke once again out the left exhaust almost simultaneous with very rough running and a nasty tendency to kickback. This was beyond my skills to troubleshoot and I took it to a local shop in town. To the tune of well over $1000 it was soon discovered (i) no crank seal installed on the primary side, hence the flooding of the primary with every wet sump (ii) the Sparx ignition had failed (causing the rough running and kickback) (iii) worse though, THE WRONG VALVE GUIDE was installed, which is why the left inlet seal kept slipping off (iv) still worse than that, when the head was pulled to replace the guide, discovered the cylinders were improperly bored and one of the rings had broken (possibly from having an oversize ring installed) requiring reboring, honing, and new pistons. When I took the bike to the shop I had notified Paul, and despite promises to fix the issue if his work was at fault, Paul's answer to this was "I'm not really in a position to help." Disgusted by this point I just cut off communication with him.

After getting all this sorted, I left about a month later for another 7 month military deployment. Returned this past June. Latest shenanigans... with less than 1500 miles on this complete rebuild, (supposedly new) layshaft bearing failed destroying 4th gear and fortunately *not* leaving me with a locked up wheel going 40 mph. Also discovered the oil system is only delivering 1/4 the proper pressure. OPRV and pump check good... now going into a tear down of the bottom end as next likely culprit is the rod bearings...

Cheers,

- HJ

yeah it really is only he said she said in the end. not saying i don't believe the guy, but what it comes down to like jerry is saying, is everyone is kicking the dead horse. If someone tells their story thats fine, but everyone doesn't need to gang up on any other member. let the stories speak for themselves and take them at face value. i left my motor with a guy/shop i didn't really know, but when i walked in and he had 5 norton's in there being worked on that looked much nicer than mine i figured he must be okay!

Snorton74 said:

Hopefully that hurricane only takes out the Republican convention. There, that should change the subject. Have a great ride Jerry!

Click to expand...

But what about all the strippers headed there. Those poor girls need the dollar bills to rain on them for their college tuition. Trickle down economics, dom't want them going on welfare and becoming democrats.

Jerry -

It's kind of funny because when I started corresponding to Chip and some of the other former clients awhile back, my advice was people should use caution when 'going public' with the issues. It usually turns nasty pretty quickly and ends up with all parties looking bad. I've seen this before and definitely understand your actions in protecting the community. Also it's difficult to really prove anything, especially when we are talking about 40 year old machines that had issues to start with out of the factory.

After awhile though kept hearing more things crop up. And it kept becoming more and more clear there were fundamental things wrong with my bike assembly; this wasn't just a string of bad luck. Failure of my layshaft after discovery of the wrong inlet valve guide finally set me off, as I had specifically asked about that bearing and been reassured. It failed on me in heavy traffic going about 40 and could have resulted in serious injury.

I'm not out to ruin anyone, just sharing my experience. I don't think anyone is getting rich off these things or making out like a bandit and I'm not looking to start a lawsuit. But it's one thing to jury rig stuff on your personal bike and another thing entirely when you are advertising as a professional restoration shop.

Still love the forum and the community you've built here!

Cheers,

- HJ

In my opinion, experiences like HJ's need to be publicized. Unless I'm mistaken, we're a brotherhood here and need to look out for each other. My horrible experiences with GP also ramped up to a Deleted Thread. During my postings, where Windy and I described the facts without any measure of slander, there were those on this site who were crying foul and saying we shouldn't front out a fellow member. Well, this is BS. There are those "experts" out there who prey on our dreams...who smell the $$ and take advantage of those trying to enter the Nortoneering fraternity. HJ's experience mirrors in so many ways my own experience with GP that I found myself thinking time and time again, "hey, I could have written that." After $12,000 of my hard-earned dollars, my bike arrived with massive oil leaks...useless barking/coughing carb performance...missing spacers...finger-tight nuts in critical areas...etc., etc, all common to HJ's experience. I don't hold any grudges against GP since he paid Windy some substantial "warranty" to make everything right...although I must admit the angst I felt took a long time to dissapate.

pvisseriii said:

highdesert said:

absolutely no one should be protected from legitimate and documented valid criticism, no one

Click to expand...

I agree but where is the line. Lets say you have legitimate and documented paperwork, Great. But when it's presented here on the forum it is hardly more than opinion, hearsay and quite frankly if not proven in a court of law, boarder line slander.

Any lawyer will tell you, it doesn't matter if it true or not, it's what can be proven. If such documentation exist of misrepresentation and settlement obtained, then I would say share such evidence to back said opinion. Otherwise, go see a lawyer.

I recall being slapped around for just this sort of behavior, bitching about obvious inadequacies. Just sharing my opinion.

Here is my opinion. If you are not mechanically incline enough to care for these relatively simple machines or are unable or unwilling to learn, then you are living with the risk of having to trust unauthorized service people.and should except the risk. Otherwise, take up knitting.

These bikes are special and I wish everyone could experience the feeling I get when I ride it.
But, If "IF's' and "but's" were candy and nut, then everyday would be Christmas.
If you CHOOSE to pick up the ball, you better be ready to run.
The most important Norton tool is common sense.
I learning to preface everything I say with some sort of disclaimer.

Hows about a list of all Documented Authorised Norton Maintanance Profeesionals and all other opinions disclaimed. Is that the way we want it to be?
You pussies are pissing me off. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Click to expand...

I bet if you weren't such a world class technician, and we're in the same situation, you'd feel differently.

Snorton74 said:

pvisseriii said:

highdesert said:

absolutely no one should be protected from legitimate and documented valid criticism, no one

Click to expand...

I agree but where is the line. Lets say you have legitimate and documented paperwork, Great. But when it's presented here on the forum it is hardly more than opinion, hearsay and quite frankly if not proven in a court of law, boarder line slander.

Any lawyer will tell you, it doesn't matter if it true or not, it's what can be proven. If such documentation exist of misrepresentation and settlement obtained, then I would say share such evidence to back said opinion. Otherwise, go see a lawyer.

I recall being slapped around for just this sort of behavior, bitching about obvious inadequacies. Just sharing my opinion.

Here is my opinion. If you are not mechanically incline enough to care for these relatively simple machines or are unable or unwilling to learn, then you are living with the risk of having to trust unauthorized service people.and should except the risk. Otherwise, take up knitting.

These bikes are special and I wish everyone could experience the feeling I get when I ride it.
But, If "IF's' and "but's" were candy and nut, then everyday would be Christmas.
If you CHOOSE to pick up the ball, you better be ready to run.
The most important Norton tool is common sense.
I learning to preface everything I say with some sort of disclaimer.

Hows about a list of all Documented Authorised Norton Maintanance Profeesionals and all other opinions disclaimed. Is that the way we want it to be?
You pussies are pissing me off. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Click to expand...

I bet if you weren't such a world class technician, and we're in the same situation, you'd feel differently.

Click to expand...

Maybe so. I guess we'll never know.