961 is back !

Vernon240 said:
This I found this strange:

'Why would they do an Atlas or Superlite?'
and
'Why is Norton trying to be something it’s not? It was never a boutique brand anyhow.'

The statements seem at odds to me. Might be my English understanding!

No, I don't think they can survive on £44k bikes...hence they should expand the range..and the atlas ranger make at least a semblance of sense...or they develop new bikes from scratch. (maybe they are putting everything into electric?).

Your attitude (negative or otherwise) doesn't offend....well, not me anyway. I don't see it as necessarily negative, it's just a view, like mine.

With responses like that from Norton, I can understand feeling negative....it's seems to be a common thread.....respond so far..then radio silence.....I hope they know what they are up to....but we sure don't!

My expectations are that Norton will do jack for us....anything over and above this will be pleasant surprise. I don't see that as negative, just realistic. I'm not sure I believe in the powers of positive thought or hope when it comes to Norton. The only certain statements they make are what they are not going to do!
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My “why would they do an Atlas or Superlite “ was sarcastic.

Meaning, they won’t bother building them because SG didn’t develop them far enough along.
TVS seems to only want to offer bikes that were already available at the time.

I agree with the electric, I personally think, they are working in the dark and putting their money and effort into EV, not ice.
 
Voodooo said:
My “why would they do an Atlas or Superlite “ was sarcastic.

Meaning, they won’t bother building them because SG didn’t develop them far enough along.
TVS seems to only want to offer bikes that were already available at the time.

I agree with the electric, I personally think, they are working in the dark and putting their money and effort into EV, not ice.
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Lol, my English then!

well, who knows what they are up to....time will tell....maybe....
 
Voodooo said:
I agree with the electric, I personally think, they are working in the dark and putting their money and effort into EV, not ice.
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Yes of course an EV, but I don't think that will be everything from Norton.
Clearly, they intend to take the company down a more modern focused path.
Probably the "re-worked" 961 will be Norton's one classic model, and it will exist until the V4, or other new designs are established to some degree. The new lines introduced will probably depart from the classic aesthetic, for the modern sports oriented design. The Atlas, and similar models have appeal for us older folks, but Norton most likely don't consider them viable.
In the case of the Superlight, I think FE was right on, Norton looked at its competition, and stepped back from the brink. They may be looking at better performing 3 or 4 cylinder designs for the smaller displacement categories.

The V4 concept cafe racer may have been a tip-off to what Norton are envisioning for their future.
Build modern designs, then have a model in that line that you dress up with "classic" styling cues, viola a classic Norton.
 
BritTwit said:
Yes of course an EV, but I don't think that will be everything from Norton.
Clearly, they intend to take the company down a more modern focused path.
Probably the "re-worked" 961 will be Norton's one classic model, and it will exist until the V4, or other new designs are established to some degree. The new lines introduced will probably depart from the classic aesthetic, for the modern sports oriented design. The Atlas, and similar models have appeal for us older folks, but Norton most likely don't consider them viable.
In the case of the Superlight, I think FE was right on, Norton looked at its competition, and stepped back from the brink. They may be looking at better performing 3 or 4 cylinder designs for the smaller displacement categories.

The V4 concept cafe racer may have been a tip-off to what Norton are envisioning for their future.
Build modern designs, then have a model in that line that you dress up with "classic" styling cues, viola a classic Norton.
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Yeah but the sv4 is also a fail performance wise comparing to the competition.
 
Voodooo said:
Yeah but the sv4 is also a fail performance wise comparing to the competition.
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Yes, but Norton (SG Norton) have sold 961s and V4s in the past. I think they are pretty sure they can sell new ones too. If both bikes are reliable the customers are out there. Not on a strict performance basis, true, but because they will have Norton badges. If Norton can develop a good reputation based on the new 961 and V4, then this will buy them time for their NEW new line - whatever that may encompass. They have to start selling product, generating an income stream, and creating happy customers to destroy the Norton curse once and for all.
 
Hesketh are about to launch a single cylinder bike of around 450cc, the engine being from Honda. Everything else bespoke british engineering, but we will see at the NEC come November. By all accounts around £14-£15K

If Norton would produce a 650cc with an in house engine for similar money, I am sure it would sell. I am sure the Atlas name will return as will others, but not Garner designs. They have to offer something more soon
 
BritTwit said:
Yes, but Norton (SG Norton) have sold 961s and V4s in the past. I think they are pretty sure they can sell new ones too. If both bikes are reliable the customers are out there. Not on a strict performance basis, true, but because they will have Norton badges. If Norton can develop a good reputation based on the new 961 and V4, then this will buy them time for their NEW new line - whatever that may encompass. They have to start selling product, generating an income stream, and creating happy customers to destroy the Norton curse once and for all.
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I don’t disagree with any of what you said.

But some people are cheap and want a bargain for their dollar.
Selling bikes for 44k isn’t going to get TVS there.

They can have a boutique line up and a modest line up. Ditching the atlas line up is purely foolish.

SG started with the 961 and started to evolve from there. We know his failed stunt of stealing money. But like him or hate him, I feel he truly wanted to make Norton successful. He just went about it wrong.

To “me” TVS is handling its business wrong by not advertising and offering a cheaper model of bike.
 
I think there were probably a combination of reasons TVS decided not to progress with the 650. At some juncture they needed to take their own path, rather than the potentially easier option of re-hashing more SG designs (however far advanced), whilst developing their own. They may have progressed with their own designs to a point where they’ve decided to do that sooner rather than later.

The 650 Superlight may not have been performance competitive enough for that market, given that price point, even with a Norton badge attached. The Atlas and Nomad a victim of the above decision on direction maybe, which might prove to be a mistake. To my mind they were ‘on trend‘ and at the right price point - these bike would have quickly expanded the model lineup and would have sold well IMO.

Price point may have been a further issue for the Atlas and Nomad. The buying public would have expected the price indicated by SG to be matched (or close) - same bike right? The reality may have been that the profit margin was too small at that price (in the current economic environment) to make it viable for TVS, without removing bling or lowering quality.

Pretty sure they don’t intend to be a boutique high end supplier. They have already hinted strongly at that. I would be very surprised if Norton Birmingham do not outline a renewed line-up at the NEC. They will doubtless have had an eye on growing discontent, impatience and conjecture.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
I think there were probably a combination of reasons TVS decided not to progress with the 650. At some juncture they needed to take their own path, rather than the potentially easier option of re-hashing more SG designs (however far advanced), whilst developing their own. They may have progressed with their own designs to a point where they’ve decided to do that sooner rather than later.

The 650 Superlight may not have been performance competitive enough for that market, given that price point, even with a Norton badge attached. The Atlas and Nomad a victim of the above decision on direction maybe, which might prove to be a mistake. To my mind they were ‘on trend‘ and at the right price point - these bike would have quickly expanded the model lineup and would have sold well IMO.

Price point may have been a further issue for the Atlas and Nomad. The buying public would have expected the price indicated by SG to be matched (or close) - same bike right? The reality may have been that the profit margin was too small at that price (in the current economic environment) to make it viable for TVS, without removing bling or lowering quality.

Pretty sure they don’t intend to be a boutique high end supplier. They have already hinted strongly at that. I would be very surprised if Norton Birmingham do not outline a renewed line-up at the NEC. They will doubtless have had an eye on growing discontent, impatience and conjecture.
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You’re kidding right?

You said “The 650 Superlight may not have been performance competitive enough for that market, given that price point”

Noting Norton makes is performance competitive at any price point.

Our 961 cost more new than what the triumph and all other brands in the same category cost, and the 961 isn’t even close to any of them in the performance aspect.

So tell me, why did they bother with the V4?
Over priced?
Under performance?
Sounds like a winner :rolleyes:

I keep saying it, todays Norton isn’t what it once was and when the younger rider doesn’t know of them, it’s a lose - lose situation.

Even with a Norton badge on the side, many of todays younger buyers will walk right past it.

Boomers and Gen x won’t be around long enough to keep TVS Norton afloat.
 
SG Norton didn’t develop/bring the 961 to the market for its performance. They would’nt have used an air cooled, push rod parallel twin if it was a performance choice. The older type technology and beutiful styling was used to create an aesthetics and that visceral, authentic (somewhat unique in a modern bike) riding experience that most of us love; a true modern classic if you like. The comparison between the 961 and modern Triumph equivalent in this regard (by way of cost/performance) is not really valid IMO. It is’nt a comparison that I made.

I’m offering up multiple resaons why they may have dropped the 650’s, including the Superlight. I’m hypothesising that performance may have been a factor with the Superlight in what is a competitive category.

I suspect they introduced the V4 because it was already developed; drop dead gorgeous; had garnered a lot of attention; they needed a flagship and to put down a quality marker etc etc. I think most mature owners (by age and outlook) will be able to see past a few HP deficit (that they will never use), with the competition - drawn in by the ‘beauty and the badge’ will be Norton‘s hope. Who wants to see yet another ubiquitous hyper-Duc anyway - the buyer of the V4 has likely already owned one or seen many! All reason enough for the V4 to sell. Time will tell.

I don’t think it’s Norton Birmingham’s intent is to become ‘what Norton once was’, but to produce quality modern machines in a modern market place - sure they will leverage the hell out of the badge and history but why would’nt they. Look how well that worked for Triumph.

Norton hasn’t been advertising in the US, why would they build up expectation when they are not in a position to market there at this stage. I’m pretty sure that the majority of people in the UK/Europe, at any age, that have a real interest in motorcycles will be well aware that Norton is back in business.

You talk about being able to ‘keep TVS Norton afloat‘ as though it is inevitable already that they will fail! They have yet to identify their model line-up or open for business. Respectfully, it might be worthwhile keeping a more open mind. My opinion only.
 
And given Garners smoke and mirrors financial abilities how much did TVS own, were Zongshen the only ones who actually put cash into the 650 development? I guess we won't know the answer to that.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
SG Norton didn’t develop/bring the 961 to the market for its performance. They would’nt have used an air cooled, push rod parallel twin if it was a performance choice. The older type technology and beutiful styling was used to create an aesthetics and that visceral, authentic (somewhat unique in a modern bike) riding experience that most of us love; a true modern classic if you like. The comparison between the 961 and modern Triumph equivalent in this regard (by way of cost/performance) is not really valid IMO. It is’nt a comparison that I made.

I’m offering up multiple resaons why they may have dropped the 650’s, including the Superlight. I’m hypothesising that performance may have been a factor with the Superlight in what is a competitive category.

I suspect they introduced the V4 because it was already developed; drop dead gorgeous; had garnered a lot of attention; they needed a flagship and to put down a quality marker etc etc. I think most mature owners (by age and outlook) will be able to see past a few HP deficit (that they will never use), with the competition - drawn in by the ‘beauty and the badge’ will be Norton‘s hope. Who wants to see yet another ubiquitous hyper-Duc anyway - the buyer of the V4 has likely already owned one or seen many! All reason enough for the V4 to sell. Time will tell.

I don’t think it’s Norton Birmingham’s intent is to become ‘what Norton once was’, but to produce quality modern machines in a modern market place - sure they will leverage the hell out of the badge and history but why would’nt they. Look how well that worked for Triumph.

Norton hasn’t been advertising in the US, why would they build up expectation when they are not in a position to market there at this stage. I’m pretty sure that the majority of people in the UK/Europe, at any age, that have a real interest in motorcycles will be well aware that Norton is back in business.

You talk about being able to ‘keep TVS Norton afloat‘ as though it is inevitable already that they will fail! They have yet to identify their model line-up or open for business. Respectfully, it might be worthwhile keeping a more open mind. My opinion only.
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TVS doesn’t advertise anywhere.
 
Voodooo said:
Hmmmmmm I don’t see a single classic Norton there. Who do you suppose is Nortons prized buyer?

On another note, I’m shocked how many actually keep the Mickey Mouse ear mirrors on.
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Thats the employee parking lot. Bought with a discount.;)
 
Well, the announcement about the ‘new’ 961 is happening later today (Aus time). Looks like Norton has opened their spares department and are supplying common parts. NEC around the corner.

Long awaited good news and clearly a step forward. Really hope there will be more flesh on the bones come the NEC, so Norton can get some real traction.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Well, the announcement about the ‘new’ 961 is happening later today (Aus time). Looks like Norton has opened their spares department and are supplying common parts. NEC around the corner.

Long awaited good news and clearly a step forward. Really hope there will be more flesh on the bones come the NEC, so Norton can get some real traction.
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Are you referring to this?

nortonmotorcycles.com

Norton Motorcycles | Celebrating 125 Years

Discover your piece of British history with Norton Motorcycles! Manufactured in Britain since 1898. Find your new motorcycle today.
nortonmotorcycles.com nortonmotorcycles.com
 
As we thought guys, same 961 with technical fixes. Two models - SP and Cafe Racer. Why mess with the styling - looks as beautiful as ever in the images. Now starts the quest to ID those changes so we can potentially piggy-back off the development. More than happy with that!:D
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
As we thought guys, same 961 with technical fixes. Two models - SP and Cafe Racer. Why mess with the styling - looks as beautiful as ever in the images. Now starts the quest to ID those changes so we can potentially piggy-back off the development. More than happy with that!:D
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Yes. MCN review on YouTube states 350 changes mainly to the engine including new camshafts and valve train. One change seems to be strengthening around the headstock to avoid potential cracks……Good news though. Oh and 16,500 and 17,000 for the Sport and Cafe respectively.
 
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