961 is back !

BritTwit said:
Not having the necessary experienced talent in-house contributed to the problem, no doubt. However, the whole process of bringing the 961 into existence was mishandled by SG. Not paying suppliers for parts, or having an outside engineering group re-work Dreer's design to make it cheaper to assemble, and produce. Then not paying the company for their work. Then the shoddy production that we saw where the timing gear on the balancer shafts was off by a tooth or two. Bad rivets and cush springs on clutch baskets, on and on.....There were just so many things wrong with SG's operation, it was inevitable that the 961 would ultimately fail. In the US we have a term for this, it is - cluster fuck. Maybe fubar is more appropriate.

Enter TVS.
They have no experience manufacturing large motorcycles, but they hire a guy (Dr. Bob) who has extensive experience in automotive and motorcycle development. You gotta think that a guy like this comes to Norton, and looks at the 961, then after he stops laughing at all of the mishaps the former company had with the 961, he is asked to give his thoughts on whether TVS/Norton should continue production of the 961.
Strangely, and apparently he has said yes. He has agreed to produce a NEW 961 for TVS/Norton.
An engineer with Dr Bob's record of success, would he agree to produce a motorcycle with known defects?
Of course not, and that is why I believe that Norton have probably spent some valuable time during the pandemic setting the various 961 issues straight. After all, Dr Bob did work at Ricardo Germany, didn't he? It is possible that Ricardo may have aided in development of this NEW 961. Maybe we should stop calling it the NEW 961, and start calling it the CORRECTED 961.
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As far as Im aware, TVS were manufacturing some bikes for BMW....so they do have experience.
 
Voodooo said:
So since TVS Norton doesn’t own the rights to the 961 motor, who will you (not you but owners) blame when or if it has issues?
Perhaps Jinlang is assembling complete 961 motors and shipping them to Norton. Perhaps a outside source was also doing that under SG.
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I'm not sure thats correct tbh....I really cant see SG selling the engine rights off, so its no longer his to use. More like they can build it under licence.
Eitherway, they're building them at Norton.
 
Voodooo said:
Maybe they should redesign a whole new motor from scratch and make it with 120+ hp and make it dependable. And made it in the UK not China.
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That's something I would like too, but I doubt that it will, or can happen.
Norton are probably devoting their resources to the future now. By that I mean EVs.
Aside from spending modest funds on re-engineering the problems out of the V4, 961, and probably the 650s, Norton will most likely focus their efforts on projects that they expect to be marketable well into the future, not new ICE designs.

However, they could put a 120hp twin together without too much effort or expense by a slight re-design of a existing, reliable design. In a previous post, I said Norton could just take the Thaiumph 1200 lump, contract with Ricardo to roll the cylinders forward 10-15 degrees (like a Norton), switch out the SOHC head for a new DOHC head, shorten the stoke by 5mm, and raise the RPM limit to 8,000rpm, change the badging to Norton stuff.
With liquid cooling, 1200cc, additional rpm, 120 hp is easily achievable.
Voila, 120hp Norton Commando twin!
 
Stu Bodycote said:
I'm not sure thats correct tbh....I really cant see SG selling the engine rights off, so its no longer his to use. More like they can build it under licence.
Eitherway, they're building them at Norton.
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I think Jinlang has exclusive rights to produce the 961 for the Asia market.
SG was too much of a flim flam man to give away all rights.
Someone needs to read the fine print in that contract.;)
 
The future is clearly EV and no doubt Norton will enter that arena, but I don’t think that it is imminent. My guess is that they know that their principle target buyer is still looking for Norton steel, not for ‘how long does it take you to charge your Norton mate?’

I see an ICE future for Norton in the medium term. V4SV/CR, 961 Classic (or version of), the Atlas 650 (variants) and maybe a surprise or two - who knows! I suspect that Birmingham Norton/TVS have more than adequate experience/expertise to building large capacity bikes. It‘s gonna be interesting whichever future is chosen. Bring it on I say!
 
From the FB site - want more oooooomph?

961 is back !
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
The future is clearly EV and no doubt Norton will enter that arena, but I don’t think that it is imminent. My guess is that they know that their principle target buyer is still looking for Norton steel, not for ‘how long does it take you to charge your Norton mate?’

I see an ICE future for Norton in the medium term. V4SV/CR, 961 Classic (or version of), the Atlas 650 (variants) and maybe a surprise or two - who knows! I suspect that Birmingham Norton/TVS have more than adequate experience/expertise to building large capacity bikes. It‘s gonna be interesting whichever future is chosen. Bring it on I say!
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This is my beliefs also,

I'm usually a coconut half empty type of guy,
But I have total faith in TVS with the future of our beloved NORTON

I do fully appreciate some people's impatience with the state of progress and lack of any sort of time scale on the state of play.

Norton is in better hands now than it ever would with SG!!!

The future is bright, but maybe just not the one you were hoping for.

Interesting and exciting times ahead...

I do hope though that some news comes to light before the NEC??!
 
Nice article, but not sure how much is true, and how much is fantasy.
Back in 2014 Matt Capri was working on a high performance kit for the 961.
It included an 1100cc high compression piston kit with new billet cylinders.
New roller cam with big valves, needle roller bearings. Matt believed he could get 110hp at the crank.
He was no BS artist either, his Magnum 125hp 1087 Triumph twin motors proved that, and they were reliable too.
But 130 hp, that's a lot more power than stock, and a whole lot more heat.
Where is that heat gonna go, thru the tiny stock oil cooler, "without sacrificing reliability and rideability?"
That's hard to swallow.

But I could be wrong, I would love to be proven wrong.
They have to get a motorcycle journalist to ride the bike, and do a full road test.
 
joinerjohn said:
This is my beliefs also,

I'm usually a coconut half empty type of guy,
But I have total faith in TVS with the future of our beloved NORTON

I do fully appreciate some people's impatience with the state of progress and lack of any sort of time scale on the state of play.

Norton is in better hands now than it ever would with SG!!!

The future is bright, but maybe just not the one you were hoping for.

Interesting and exciting times ahead...

I do hope though that some news comes to light before the NEC??!
Click to expand...
Norton is in better hands Legally and financially now perhaps, but SG was better with getting the news out and showing actual bikes and progress.

TVS is a lame duck with news and advertising.
It’s a good thing TVS isn’t the only motorcycle company in the world, or there would be no motorcycles.
 
BritTwit said:
Nice article, but not sure how much is true, and how much is fantasy.
Back in 2014 Matt Capri was working on a high performance kit for the 961.
It included an 1100cc high compression piston kit with new billet cylinders.
New roller cam with big valves, needle roller bearings. Matt believed he could get 110hp at the crank.
He was no BS artist either, his Magnum 125hp 1087 Triumph twin motors proved that, and they were reliable too.
But 130 hp, that's a lot more power than stock, and a whole lot more heat.
Where is that heat gonna go, thru the tiny stock oil cooler, "without sacrificing reliability and rideability?"
That's hard to swallow.

But I could be wrong, I would love to be proven wrong.
They have to get a motorcycle journalist to ride the bike, and do a full road test.
Click to expand...
Harley’s make that and more hp easy and they’re air cooler. It’s easy to make 150-160hp with bolt on parts using the Milwaukee 8.

I remember Matt telling me on the phone about that kit you mentioned when I bought my commando from him.

Too bad he went out of business.

Perhaps if we contacted Kenny at New York Norton and see if he’d be interested in the 961 platform

I wish he would be more involved in the 961.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
But the Milwaukee 8's have 4 valve heads with hogged out ports, and were 1700-1900cc.
The 961 will never match that kind of capacity.

I know Kenny Cummins, and I've been to his NYC Norton facility. He does turnout some pretty dazzling machines. I was considering giving him my MK3 for a complete redo. I ran into some financial issues that prevented me from moving forward. In 2018 Kenny cooperated with The Union Garage in Brooklyn NY, along with Belstaff to sponsor a "50th Anniversary of the Command" celebration at the Union Garage. The organizers wanted to gather examples of various Commandos produced through the years, and put them on display in the Union Garage showroom. Kenny asked me If I would provide my 2013 CR for the show. I very happily did. The silver and black CR in the video is mine.
Kenny really liked the 961, I didn't get the sense that he wanted to jump in and start working on them. For one thing, there is no market in it, very few exist. Also, he is literally up to his eyeballs in work from 750 and 850 Commando customers.



 
Stephen_Spencer said:
The future is clearly EV and no doubt Norton will enter that arena, but I don’t think that it is imminent. My guess is that they know that their principle target buyer is still looking for Norton steel, not for ‘how long does it take you to charge your Norton mate?’

I see an ICE future for Norton in the medium term. V4SV/CR, 961 Classic (or version of), the Atlas 650 (variants) and maybe a surprise or two - who knows! I suspect that Birmingham Norton/TVS have more than adequate experience/expertise to building large capacity bikes. It‘s gonna be interesting whichever future is chosen. Bring it on I say!
Click to expand...
Well the point lately has been if a Norton product line was important...then were the F*** is it? And "principle target buyer" are the same people that already own a 961. There might be a few fence sitters but I think their "interest list" isn't all that interesting. If they had people lined up they would be pushing out motorcycles already.
 
BritTwit said:
Nice article, but not sure how much is true, and how much is fantasy.
Back in 2014 Matt Capri was working on a high performance kit for the 961.
It included an 1100cc high compression piston kit with new billet cylinders.
New roller cam with big valves, needle roller bearings. Matt believed he could get 110hp at the crank.
He was no BS artist either, his Magnum 125hp 1087 Triumph twin motors proved that, and they were reliable too.
But 130 hp, that's a lot more power than stock, and a whole lot more heat.
Where is that heat gonna go, thru the tiny stock oil cooler, "without sacrificing reliability and rideability?"
That's hard to swallow.

But I could be wrong, I would love to be proven wrong.
They have to get a motorcycle journalist to ride the bike, and do a full road test.
Click to expand...
You can't put Matt Capri and no BS in the same sentence. He's totally BS which is why he disappeared.

As for the HP claims, its unrealistic and when people start throwing in crank HP and rear wheel HP to hype the numbers its even more suspect. The head itself would require a complete rework both intake and exhaust along with numerous other changes. I personally don't think the stock crank would handle alot more HP. I know the stock bearings won't as evidenced by the lower ends that have been replaced. You don't get those big of jumps in HP out of a twin unless drastic changes are made and then to claim reliability? Sure I can add nitrous and get more HP as well
 
BritTwit said:
But the Milwaukee 8's have 4 valve heads with hogged out ports, and were 1700-1900cc.
The 961 will never match that kind of capacity.

I know Kenny Cummins, and I've been to his NYC Norton facility. He does turnout some pretty dazzling machines. I was considering giving him my MK3 for a complete redo. I ran into some financial issues that prevented me from moving forward. In 2018 Kenny cooperated with The Union Garage in Brooklyn NY, along with Belstaff to sponsor a "50th Anniversary of the Command" celebration at the Union Garage. The organizers wanted to gather examples of various Commandos produced through the years, and put them on display in the Union Garage showroom. Kenny asked me If I would provide my 2013 CR for the show. I very happily did. The silver and black CR in the video is mine.
Kenny really liked the 961, I didn't get the sense that he wanted to jump in and start working on them. For one thing, there is no market in it, very few exist. Also, he is literally up to his eyeballs in work from 750 and 850 Commando customers.



Click to expand...

Kenny is awesome. We buy products from him as well for our build and they are some of the nicest parts available. His rearsets are a work of art too
 

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