961 is back !

Voodooo said:
Same here.
Just wish they would also sell dominator parts. I find it hard to believe that they don’t have any spare Domi parts they’ll never use.
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@Voodooo given the parts that do overlap and the margin a domi commands (ha) over a commando, its hard to believe that a domi won't turn up for sale.......
 
Ok, that’s good news - spares are actually flowing. I guess we need to try and work out (or extract from Norton Birmingham) which components have been re-engineered, at the point of purchase. If we can get good visibility then any improved/re-engineered components could potentially be retrofitted to our 961’s. Win-win, as long as you don’t own a Dommie!:oops:
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Ok, that’s good news - spares are actually flowing. I guess we need to try and work out (or extract from Norton Birmingham) which components have been re-engineered, at the point of purchase. If we can get good visibility then any improved/re-engineered components could potentially be retrofitted to our 961’s. Win-win, as long as you don’t own a Dommie!:oops:
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I vote @Stephen_Spencer as the solitary Australian agent of the new Classic, you can buy one and we'll have an Australian East Coast get together and disassembly BBQ.
 
I can see that you’re a thinking man Gojuu!! I like it! I like all aspects of that plan, except the bit where the wife hacks my balls off with a rusty spoon for buying another bike!! Other than that, a great idea:oops:!

PS. No way I’d let you disassemble my BBQ though - it was put together by Heston himself!
 
Gojuu said:
@Voodooo given the parts that do overlap and the margin a domi commands (ha) over a commando, its hard to believe that a domi won't turn up for sale.......
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I’m not sure what you mean ?
I have a commando sf and a Domi naked.
I want spare Domi parts. Not motor only parts. Some parts are Domi specific.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Ok, that’s good news - spares are actually flowing. I guess we need to try and work out (or extract from Norton Birmingham) which components have been re-engineered, at the point of purchase. If we can get good visibility then any improved/re-engineered components could potentially be retrofitted to our 961’s. Win-win, as long as you don’t own a Dommie!:oops:
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I’m gonna take a wild guess and say they didn’t re-engineer anything on the commando 961. But they most likely found another supplier / maker. I’m losing my faith in TVS by the day.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
I can see that you’re a thinking man Gojuu!! I like it! I like all aspects of that plan, except the bit where the wife hacks my balls off with a rusty spoon for buying another bike!! Other than that, a great idea:oops:!

PS. No way I’d let you disassemble my BBQ though - it was put together by Heston himself!
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Why not?
You said long live Norton.
They can’t live without people buying their product, and we won’t ever know what, if any changes they made unless we do a accurate tear down.

How long have you been married? Do you use your balls anymore?
 
Voodooo said:
I’m not sure what you mean ?
I have a commando sf and a Domi naked.
I want spare Domi parts. Not motor only parts. Some parts are Domi specific.
Click to expand...
@Voodooo - all I meant was that - given the overlap between the Commando and the Dominator, and the value of a Domi above a Commando - I would see doing a production run of Dominators could be a profitable exercise for TVS.

And I think that will happen.
 
Gojuu said:
@Voodooo - all I meant was that - given the overlap between the Commando and the Dominator, and the value of a Domi above a Commando - I would see doing a production run of Dominators could be a profitable exercise for TVS.

And I think that will happen.
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I honestly do not think they will do the Domi. And the email I got states “Commando classic” only.
 
Voodooo said:
Why not?
You said long live Norton.
They can’t live without people buying their product, and we won’t ever know what, if any changes they made unless we do a accurate tear down.

How long have you been married? Do you use your balls anymore?
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Busted, you’re right! Of course I don’t use them anymore, but I like them to be there for show at least! A bit like the Heston BBQ, form over function! It looks beutiful but has no rear lip on the main plate, so you put your snags on and the back one immediately rolls off and onto the deck!! I always put it back on the barby and make sure the wife gets it!

961 is back !
 
Voodooo said:
I’m gonna take a wild guess and say they didn’t re-engineer anything on the commando 961. But they most likely found another supplier / maker.
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But that doesn't make sense either.
Why would they say that there is a NEW 961 to be introduced, if it is effectively the same old 961 with the same issues that caused all of the problems of the previous SG 961's. Why would TVS expose themselves to the potentially huge warranty expenses of "fixing" owner's NEW 961's with broken balancer shafts, broken crankcase, damaged clutch baskets, scored rocker bushes, etc.

No, I think that the 961's problems were ones resulting from insufficient engineering/development time. These problems were all eminently resolvable, given a reasonable amount of engineering input and QA/QC. It is just that SG wanted to push out product to make money. He never allowed the 961 to get the needed TLC or the proper development time to be a reliable modern EFI machine.

I'm thinking any first rate engineering firm could probably spend a bit of time looking the 961 over, and addressing the serious issues that the engine currently has. I think it's entirely possible that this is what TVS have done.
Why else would they be willing to commit to production of a new 961.
 
BritTwit said:
But that doesn't make sense either.
Why would they say that there is a NEW 961 to be introduced, if it is effectively the same old 961 with the same issues that caused all of the problems of the previous SG 961's. Why would TVS expose themselves to the potentially huge warranty expenses of "fixing" owner's NEW 961's with broken balancer shafts, broken crankcase, damaged clutch baskets, scored rocker bushes, etc.

No, I think that the 961's problems were ones resulting from insufficient engineering/development time. These problems were all eminently resolvable, given a reasonable amount of engineering input and QA/QC. It is just that SG wanted to push out product to make money. He never allowed the 961 to get the needed TLC or the proper development time to be a reliable modern EFI machine.

I'm thinking any first rate engineering firm could probably spend a bit of time looking the 961 over, and addressing the serious issues that the engine currently has. I think it's entirely possible that this is what TVS have done.
Why else would they be willing to commit to production of a new 961.
Click to expand...
They had 10yrs to sort it. IMO it wasn't so much time, but more because it was a very young design team with little experience to call upon. Not their fault, everyone has to start somewhere...just unfortunate they didnt have seasoned design team leaders. That added to purchasers that were forever penny pinching, in a bid to impress the boss...is what really went against the bikes.
Ive been working from my shed at the bottom of the garden now for nearly two years. I have a steady flow of 961's....currently got four in....and I have no ongoing problem bikes like we did at Norton. I just replace the problematic parts with better quality parts....much the same as many of you guys have been doing on here. Doesn't take much to make them MUCH more reliable.
 
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Stephen_Spencer said:
Busted, you’re right! Of course I don’t use them anymore, but I like them to be there for show at least! A bit like the Heston BBQ, form over function! It looks beutiful but has no rear lip on the main plate, so you put your snags on and the back one immediately rolls off and onto the deck!! I always put it back on the barby and make sure the wife gets it!

View attachment 99096
Click to expand...
@Stephen_Spencer and you wonder why you’re not allowed to buy more bikes……
 
Stu Bodycote said:
They had 10yrs to sort it. IMO it wasn't so much time, but more because it was a very young design team with little experience to call upon. Not their fault, everyone has to start somewhere...just unfortunate they didnt have seasoned design team leaders. That added to purchasers that were forever penny pinching, in a bid to impress the boss...is what really went against the bikes.
Ive been working from my shed at the bottom of the garden now for nearly two years. I have a steady flow of 961's....currently got four in....and I have no ongoing problem bikes like we did at Norton. I just replace the problematic parts with better quality parts....much the same as many of you guys have been doing on here. Doesn't take much to make them MUCH more reliable.
Click to expand...
Not having the necessary experienced talent in-house contributed to the problem, no doubt. However, the whole process of bringing the 961 into existence was mishandled by SG. Not paying suppliers for parts, or having an outside engineering group re-work Dreer's design to make it cheaper to assemble, and produce. Then not paying the company for their work. Then the shoddy production that we saw where the timing gear on the balancer shafts was off by a tooth or two. Bad rivets and cush springs on clutch baskets, on and on.....There were just so many things wrong with SG's operation, it was inevitable that the 961 would ultimately fail. In the US we have a term for this, it is - cluster fuck. Maybe fubar is more appropriate.

Enter TVS.
They have no experience manufacturing large motorcycles, but they hire a guy (Dr. Bob) who has extensive experience in automotive and motorcycle development. You gotta think that a guy like this comes to Norton, and looks at the 961, then after he stops laughing at all of the mishaps the former company had with the 961, he is asked to give his thoughts on whether TVS/Norton should continue production of the 961.
Strangely, and apparently he has said yes. He has agreed to produce a NEW 961 for TVS/Norton.
An engineer with Dr Bob's record of success, would he agree to produce a motorcycle with known defects?
Of course not, and that is why I believe that Norton have probably spent some valuable time during the pandemic setting the various 961 issues straight. After all, Dr Bob did work at Ricardo Germany, didn't he? It is possible that Ricardo may have aided in development of this NEW 961. Maybe we should stop calling it the NEW 961, and start calling it the CORRECTED 961.
 
But that doesn't make sense either.
BritTwit said:
Why would they say that there is a NEW 961 to be introduced, if it is effectively the same old 961 with the same issues that caused all of the problems of the previous SG 961's. Why would TVS expose themselves to the potentially huge warranty expenses of "fixing" owner's NEW 961's with broken balancer shafts, broken crankcase, damaged clutch baskets, scored rocker bushes, etc.

No, I think that the 961's problems were ones resulting from insufficient engineering/development time. These problems were all eminently resolvable, given a reasonable amount of engineering input and QA/QC. It is just that SG wanted to push out product to make money. He never allowed the 961 to get the needed TLC or the proper development time to be a reliable modern EFI machine.

I'm thinking any first rate engineering firm could probably spend a bit of time looking the 961 over, and addressing the serious issues that the engine currently has. I think it's entirely possible that this is what TVS have done.
Why else would they be willing to commit to production of a new 961.
Click to expand...
It’s new because it’s now owned by TVS.
All they needed to do to improve it was used quality sensors like those from Bosch.

We may never know what if anything they’ve done to the “Commando Classic”

Both of my 961’s haven’t had any mechanical issues. Sure, I’m not at 5000 miles, but the only issues I’ve had were from poor assembly.

New could also mean, trained and educated workers.

Not every SG 961 had issues and who knows how or if any of the TVS 961s will have issues.

What I do know is, I’m not buying one and that they won’t be selling them here in the USA anytime soon.

I’m really confused by what TVS has planned for Norton. Do they just want to sell bikes they didn’t design and make a few changes?
Do they want to just build a few bikes a year?
That won’t keep them afloat.

Do they want to be a world class brand and be what Norton once was?
What’s the point of a multi million £ building if not? Just for show?
That’s all they seem to ever talk about.
 
BritTwit said:
Not having the necessary experienced talent in-house contributed to the problem, no doubt. However, the whole process of bringing the 961 into existence was mishandled by SG. Not paying suppliers for parts, or having an outside engineering group re-work Dreer's design to make it cheaper to assemble, and produce. Then not paying the company for their work. Then the shoddy production that we saw where the timing gear on the balancer shafts was off by a tooth or two. Bad rivets and cush springs on clutch baskets, on and on.....There were just so many things wrong with SG's operation, it was inevitable that the 961 would ultimately fail. In the US we have a term for this, it is - cluster fuck. Maybe fubar is more appropriate.

Enter TVS.
They have no experience manufacturing large motorcycles, but they hire a guy (Dr. Bob) who has extensive experience in automotive and motorcycle development. You gotta think that a guy like this comes to Norton, and looks at the 961, then after he stops laughing at all of the mishaps the former company had with the 961, he is asked to give his thoughts on whether TVS/Norton should continue production of the 961.
Strangely, and apparently he has said yes. He has agreed to produce a NEW 961 for TVS/Norton.
An engineer with Dr Bob's record of success, would he agree to produce a motorcycle with known defects?
Of course not, and that is why I believe that Norton have probably spent some valuable time during the pandemic setting the various 961 issues straight. After all, Dr Bob did work at Ricardo Germany, didn't he? It is possible that Ricardo may have aided in development of this NEW 961. Maybe we should stop calling it the NEW 961, and start calling it the CORRECTED 961.
Click to expand...
So since TVS Norton doesn’t own the rights to the 961 motor, who will you (not you but owners) blame when or if it has issues?
Perhaps Jinlang is assembling complete 961 motors and shipping them to Norton. Perhaps a outside source was also doing that under SG.
 
Voodooo said:
So since TVS Norton doesn’t own the rights to the 961 motor, who will you (not you but owners) blame when or if it has issues?
Perhaps Jinlang is assembling complete 961 motors and shipping them to Norton. Perhaps a outside source was also doing that under SG.
Click to expand...
If TVS/Norton were to sell NEW 961s with the old, uncorrected 961 motors, and those new machines had the same old problems, I would, and no doubt new owners would also blame Dr. Bob. But, this is the whole basis of my belief, that the good Dr. will not risk his reputation producing a turd. OK, turd is a tad rough, let's say problem plagued machine. If Dr. Bob has agreed to produce a NEW 961, he would have to be damn sure that the thing has been corrected. Now, if the corrected 961 motors are manufactured in the UK or Communist China I can't answer. But, IF the new 961s have properly corrected engines so that buyers are basically getting Nortons with the reliability, and operational precision of any modern EFI motorcycle, the NEW 961 will sell.
It will be a BIG "IF" for buyers, given the SG era.
 
BritTwit said:
If TVS/Norton were to sell NEW 961s with the old, uncorrected 961 motors, and those new machines had the same old problems, I would, and no doubt new owners would also blame Dr. Bob. But, this is the whole basis of my belief, that the good Dr. will not risk his reputation producing a turd. OK, turd is a tad rough, let's say problem plagued machine. If Dr. Bob has agreed to produce a NEW 961, he would have to be damn sure that the thing has been corrected. Now, if the corrected 961 motors are manufactured in the UK or Communist China I can't answer. But, IF the new 961s have properly corrected engines so that buyers are basically getting Nortons with the reliability, and operational precision of any modern EFI motorcycle, the NEW 961 will sell.
It will be a BIG "IF" for buyers, given the SG era.
Click to expand...
Maybe they should redesign a whole new motor from scratch and make it with 120+ hp and make it dependable. And made it in the UK not China.
 
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