850MkIIa rebuild underway

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bill said:
Andy
The gear face spalling is common in Norton gearbox's. It is most prevalent on 1st main, second pair and 4th lay shaft. forth lay shaft is in play in all but 4th gear and is a small diameter gear as is 1st main so both are highly stressed.

Good info, and certainly rings true. What suprised me was how unmarked the rest of the gears were. I changed the gears mainly to reduce transmission whine: I just had an image of shifting up through the gears to have my idyllic ride spoiled by the sound of a Chieftain tank in reverse!
 
I'm a regular Emgo-holic for my own bikes, and I recommend specific Emgo stuff (including brake and clutch parts) regulary for my clients.
 
grandpaul said:
I'm a regular Emgo-holic for my own bikes, and I recommend specific Emgo stuff (including brake and clutch parts) regulary for my clients.

Having just recently been an Emgo user, I've been happy with the quality - pattern parts have come a long way in the 25 years I've been running Brit Iron.
Am I the only one who has removed an old part only to find that it's still better than its 'new' replacement?

Anyway, back to the plot...

The next job was to pull the engine and check everything out:

The PO had clearly come from the School of the Long Screwdriver...note the lovingly prised barrel flange

850MkIIa rebuild underway


And further evidence of previous harm. When I was an apprentice people like this were called 'Dewhursts', in tribute to the local firm of Master Butchers...
I expect that he was the sort of guy who would be down at the pub slagging British bikes off when he wasn't 'working' on them :roll:

850MkIIa rebuild underway


The bores themselves were in very good shape with very little wear, but I'd need to do something about those barrel fins!

Once the barrels were off it was apparent that my engine was suffering from a typical case of chocolate cam syndrome

850MkIIa rebuild underway


After a little deliberation about what to do with the cam, I posted a question on the Forum regarding what profile to use, and the overwhelming response was to stick with standard, so I sent it off to RGM to have it re-stellited.
They bettered their stated turnaround time, and it was significantly cheaper than a new cam (my fault the grease got covered in dust...must be more careful :roll: )

850MkIIa rebuild underway


Once the cases were apart the rods were removed and the crank checked out with no issues whatsoever

850MkIIa rebuild underway


Even the shells were good enough to re-use, but they were replaced along with the big-end bolts.

850MkIIa rebuild underway


Based on the condition of the internals, I decided against pulling the crank apart to clear the sludge trap - I just didn't believe it was justified in this case.
I did notice this, however...I'm sure Ive seen this elsewhere, too (Grandpaul!).

850MkIIa rebuild underway


Here are all the main components ready to reassemble

850MkIIa rebuild underway


The original mains were retained, as they showed no evidence of wear, and the cases cleaned up very easily - no oil varnish to deal with, just oily residue.
One place I did get carried away was the sump-strainer, as the old one looked pretty grim from the outside (for the all-important 'cranked' over' photo in future :oops: ).
After seeing what one of Grandpaul's motors had done with a loose strainer washer, I was VERY careful to ensure the circlip was in right- it needed pushing into place to get fully seated

850MkIIa rebuild underway


This is my preferred 'squeeze' for rebuilds;

850MkIIa rebuild underway


The cases went together with no dramas. New isolastics of the original compound were fitted to the re-sprayed engine mounts, and Mick Hemmings vernier adjusters were used.
I bolted everything together to get an idea of how it would look on installation. At the same time I fitted new swinging arm bearings, oil seal holders etc.

850MkIIa rebuild underway


850MkIIa rebuild underway


850MkIIa rebuild underway


I have to say that at this point I was really enjoying the experience! I'm using stainless fasteners throughout (from RGM, of course!), and everything has gone together remarkably well.

More later!
 
After seeing what one of Grandpaul's motors had done with a loose strainer washer, I was VERY careful to ensure the circlip was in right- it needed pushing into place to get fully seated


Andy
on the circlip issue I would recommend to solder it in if you can


windy
 
You had the crank out on your workbench and didn't open it to clean it out?

YEEF!

The stuff did look good, but ou should have done it for ultimate peace of mind...

Excellent pix,and good progress. Keep it up!
 
grandpaul said:
You had the crank out on your workbench and didn't open it to clean it out?

YEEF!

The stuff did look good, but ou should have done it for ultimate peace of mind...

Excellent pix,and good progress. Keep it up!

I know, I know...!

I balanced the probabilities - I'm more relaxed with not disturbing the crank, but that's my aircraft training coming to the fore - I've got a strong aversion to maintenance induced failures!
More peace of mind for me leaving it alone in this instance ;)
 
Great pix and and narrative, your training shows. There's a possible problem that always comes up with the cradle and swingarm, whether paint or powdercoat. If the bushes can get past the the paint they will be loose on the metal. It's probably not much or show up in handling, but loose things tend to looser faster. It means removing the paint to make a path for the swingarm install. You can check the fit without the o-rings and tighten it up with shims from the rear iso's between the cups and the swingarm. You can always touch up the cradle after. One things for sure, it's never going to get a chance to rust :D
 
swooshdave said:
grandpaul said:
Excellent pix.

Do you have more pics of the gearbox rebuild?

Sorry - I was too busy doing the interesting stuff to think about getting more pictures :oops: , but I can strongly recommend the OIldBritts article.
Hope to have another update later - I've been very busy with the bike this last week; too busy to upload any photos, but I'll catch up :wink:
 
grandpaul said:
You had the crank out on your workbench and didn't open it to clean it out?

YEEF!

The stuff did look good, but ou should have done it for ultimate peace of mind...

Excellent pix,and good progress. Keep it up!

This may be a stupid question but is cleaning a sludge trap particularly important if you're running a detergent oil, mono or multigrade , and have an oil filter.
My understanding is that the detergent is there to keep any particles in suspension so they make it back to the filter to get taken out rather than dropping out in the engine in sludge.
Do modern crankshafts don't have sludge traps?
 
Rich_j said:
This may be a stupid question but is cleaning a sludge trap particularly important if you're running a detergent oil, mono or multigrade , and have an oil filter.
My understanding is that the detergent is there to keep any particles in suspension so they make it back to the filter to get taken out rather than dropping out in the engine in sludge.
Do modern crankshafts don't have sludge traps?

Particles in suspension? You mean particles in your bearings? Particles that get sucked into your oil pump before being sent off to the filter?
 
bill said:
After seeing what one of Grandpaul's motors had done with a loose strainer washer, I was VERY careful to ensure the circlip was in right- it needed pushing into place to get fully seated


Andy
on the circlip issue I would recommend to solder it in if you can


windy
YES. soldering the circlip is STANDARD PROCEDURE as is outlined in the Norton factory manuals.
 
maylar said:
Particles in suspension? You mean particles in your bearings? Particles that get sucked into your oil pump before being sent off to the filter?

Tricky one - the nature of the beast is that the crud will always pass through something which may be affected before it gets caught by the filter.
I remember a few years back someone marketing a Triumph T140 full-flow filter which tapped into the feed between the pump and the crank to resolve this issue. I thought that a filter on the return would get the crud out before it gets to the oil tank, and that this particular mod was a total waste of effort...and really loused up the looks of the engine :roll:
Haven't seen it around for a while....
 
Rich_j said:
This may be a stupid question but is cleaning a sludge trap particularly important if you're running a detergent oil, mono or multigrade , and have an oil filter.

As I see it, if a 'proper' filter is fitted, then it will probably increase the time it takes for the sludge trap to fill up, but I doubt it would stop it happening completely?



Rich_j said:
My understanding is that the detergent is there to keep any particles in suspension so they make it back to the filter to get taken out rather than dropping out in the engine in sludge.

I think there's going to be a difference between particles 'dropping out' of suspension, and being flung outwards by centrifugal force as they pass through the sludge trap? Therefore I wouldn't think detergent oil is going to be much better at keeping sludge traps cleaner than non-detergent oil?


B+Bogus said:
I remember a few years back someone marketing a Triumph T140 full-flow filter which tapped into the feed between the pump and the crank to resolve this issue. I thought that a filter on the return would get the crud out before it gets to the oil tank, and that this particular mod was a total waste of effort...and really loused up the looks of the engine
Haven't seen it around for a while....


Kirby Rowbotham still manufactures and sells that kit, as far as I know? http://www.kirbyrowbotham.com/oilfilters.php?page=1
 
MAP sells a kit for Triumphs that consists of a cylinder that holds a Trident filter. It splices into the return oil line. It fits behind the engine and is not very noticable. I have one on my t140. I don't seem why you couldn't use it on a Norton if you could find a point to attach it. On the Triumph its held by a clamp that uses the upper rear motor mount bolt as an attachment. With that said why would you not want to run the standard Commando setup? Many people run the Commando one on Triumphs.
 
htown16 said:
Many people run the Commando one on Triumphs.

True, but have you ever seen the trickle of oil that comes from the rocker feed of a Triumph? Running an automotive style filter like on a Commando will decrease the already small amount coming through to the rocker feed. Maybe that MAP Triumph filter has a higher flow rate, and if it does I'll consider using it.

I'm not going to be running a filter on my Triumph that is currently in build state. I'll just change the oil more frequently and use magnetic drain plugs.
 
I know we're drifting off topic, but ...
My T140 has a full flow (B25) filter mounted on the sump plate inside the frame;

http://triumphbonneville.com/shopsite_s ... 20kit.html

I can't pretend I didn't have issues with the kit, but once I'd spot-faced the through-bolt hole in the plate it did keep the oil where it should be :roll:

Previously the bike had a Norton filter, but I was looking for a neater solution.
 
That spalling was common 30 years ago. I just put mine back together and it caused no issues.
 
Coco said:
but have you ever seen the trickle of oil that comes from the rocker feed of a Triumph?

I believe the rigid rocker feed pipe acts as a restrictor, so is meant to be like that?




Coco said:
Running an automotive style filter like on a Commando will decrease the already small amount coming through to the rocker feed.

I remember reading an article some years ago, in 'Nacelle', the magazine of the UK TOMCC where bench tests were carried out to determine if these filters actually caused any flow restriction. If I remember correctly the results were that the pump flow rates just weren't high enough for the filters to register any measurable restriction to the oil flow.


Coco said:
Maybe that MAP Triumph filter has a higher flow rate, and if it does I'll consider using it.


The MAP filter I think, is either the 'Hide-de-Hi' filter (or a direct copy of it) that's been made in the UK by Bob Light for I'd guess around 20 years or so (I presume he still makes them?) which takes a standard BSA R3/Triumph Trident paper element oil filter, and I've never heard of any problems occurring with that particular filter design?
However for an OIF Triumph model, the frame plate filter (as shown by B+Bogus) is just as good as any other type in my opinion, plus it's hidden away with no extra pipework which could split or leak.
 
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