2S Cam in standard 750

danfr

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Hey all,

I'm having trouble finding an affordable option to replace my camshaft. I cam across a new 2S cam for sale for relatively cheap. Will a 2S cam work with the standard '71 750 valve train and pistons? The listed valve clearances appear to be the same, but curious about if there's any piston interference I should be worried about. I heard good things from these cams so I'm curious to try. (and hear!)

thanks

Edit: I just put in Kibblewhite STD valve springs with their black Diamond valves and guides.
 
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I cam across a new 2S cam for sale for relatively cheap.

The latest manufactured AN 2S camshaft is scrolled and machined for the timed breather...

A new original 2S would not.
 
I thought the 2S cam is not that desirable in a street bike. And without a higher compression head, it would be even less desirable. While there seems to be some confusion about the valve clearances for a 2S cam, I am pretty sure a standard cam uses different clearances.
 
The 2S is a race cam. As such it produces more power than stock above 4-4,500rpm and less below that. Whether or not that suits is down to personal riding style, intended use, etc.

But to do that it needs increased CR as mentioned above. I’m pretty sure that without that you will basically have a slower bike than stock.

Nothing at all wrong with fitting a 2S cam IMO if thats the kind of bike you want. But I would suggest that fitting one as a cost saving exercise is not wise, as to do it right is gonna take time and / or money.

BTW, a new cam from RGM is £149… of course you gotta add shipping, but you don’t add VAT…

 
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Your cases would likely need machining too depending on when they started machining the extra clearance for the high lift cam lobes.

 
I would advise against this cam, if you want more hop look at the Web 312A, but even then, as kommando noted, the cam tunnel in the cases will have to be opened up for clearance. If it's a budget issue you should PM me, we have a few club members with used standard cams in good nick.
 
Whatever cam you fit you still have the extra cost of regrinding the old followers, or buying new ones.
A used cam will have been run-in with the followers in the motor it came from, so they should ideally be kept together unless the cam is reground.

The '71 750 commando used the same cam and the same basic cylinder head as the 88ss (slightly larger inlet valves and carbs on the 750 being the only differences). Although a rapid bike of it's era, the standard commando has a mildly tuned engine compared to the 88ss and the good torque at low revs a deffinite pluss.
 
88ss rated bhp =36
71 750 rated bhp =58

750/500 × 36 =54

It seems the Commando is making a bit more bhp per cc than an 88ss?

Glen
 
I would advise against this cam, if you want more hop look at the Web 312A, but even then, as kommando noted, the cam tunnel in the cases will have to be opened up for clearance. If it's a budget issue you should PM me, we have a few club members with used standard cams in good nick.

I think you mean a Web Cam 312, not a 312A. The 312A is basically a sifton 460. The 312 is like a PW3, and the 312 does not look all that different than a 2s. I personally would rather have Web Cam 312, or JS Motorsport stage 2 (with radiused stock lifters) than a 2s.
 
I've done what you are thinking about doing, but in an earlier set of 750 cases. There is no issue with Commando piston clearance. KW valve springs and valves are good to go. The engine will run with lower compression, but getting the head surfaced or using no base gasket and a .021 copper head gasket would help. It is not a great cam for short shifting. For example, riding at 25 mph in 3rd gear on an uphill and twisting the throttle wide open would be very disappointing for a few seconds until it started making usable power again. If the revs are kept up it is a nice cam with what feels like an endless top end.

It is not merely a cam swap though, as has already been mentioned. It'll cost more than just a cam. The early 2S cam does need a breather solution. If your tappets don't look like crap they do not need to be radiused. Getting the tappets surfaced wouldn't hurt though. The 2S works with flat tappets.

More than likely the 2S would not slide into the cam tunnel and would require machine work. I had to have my cases modified.

A better solution along the same lines as the 2S would be a JS2 because it produces more torque than a 2S making it a slightly better street cam. It also makes very respectable power in the higher rev ranges similar to the 2S. Unfortunately, to do a JS2 right it is kind of pricey.

I have only used 3 cams in a Norton 750. Stock P11 cam, 2S, and now the JS2.

The webcam 312 is very popular and I believe it works with flat tappets and stock thickness head gaskets. The 312 is recommended by many and probably for good reason. I have no experience with one.

Personally, I wouldn't install a hotter cam in a stock Norton engine if I wanted to get the most out of the cam and not blow the motor up. A faster reliable Norton engine will burn a big hole in your wallet. If you have the money to burn the reward certainly can be worth it. Doing the best job you can possibly do with the tune using the stock cam and living with it, is a lot cheaper.

If you do decide to go forward with building a racey motor for the street, don't forget about improving the front brake.
 
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Hey all, thanks for all the replies. The sole purpose of the 2S cam was an upfront cost savings measure. I have no problem doing a bit of work on the cases and barrels to create more clearance, however, perhaps I am making things more complicated for myself.

RGM does not have the standard cam and buying direct from Newman cams is roughly $340 CAD. Walridge here in Canada is asking $475.
 
The latest manufactured AN 2S camshaft is scrolled and machined for the timed breather...

A new original 2S would not.
This is the cam I'm looking at. I too noticed it is machined for the timed breather so it should work with my 71
 
88ss rated bhp =36
71 750 rated bhp =58

750/500 × 36 =54

It seems the Commando is making a bit more bhp per cc than an 88ss?

Glen
Sorry, but I have an advantage over you on that subject as I actually know how much power the 750, standard and combat versions, produced. The numbers you quote are different ones released to the public.
 
The 58 bhp for a standard 750 is claimed crankshaft output, of course, as is the 36bhp for the 88ss.


Glen
 
I think you mean a Web Cam 312, not a 312A. The 312A is basically a sifton 460. The 312 is like a PW3, and the 312 does not look all that different than a 2s. I personally would rather have Web Cam 312, or JS Motorsport stage 2 (with radiused stock lifters) than a 2s.

No I meant the 312A, I'm currently running that with radiused followers, but I appreciate that the OP is trying to be cost efficient here
 
As said, unless you increase the compression ratio to 10:1 this would be a futile exercise. You are looking at machine work to fit the cam, mill the head .040 and shorten the pushrods to put your engine to Combat spec. Hopefully, your carbs are still 30mm as well as the head intake ports. You'd benefit with 32mm carbs mounted to '74 850 intake manifolds to maximize flow and performance.
Then there's the crankshaft bearings that need to be upgraded.
There is no short coming in using the stock cam. It performs well in mid range to redline.
I retained it and upped the CR to 10:1, added 32mm Amals with Dunstall mufflers and was quite happy with the result.
If you haven't upgraded headsteady, center stand, added oil filter and a disc front brake, you should be putting your money to better use than all the money you're going to spend to change your engine to a Combat. If you have the funds to do that and upgrade the rest of your '71, then proceed! :cool:
 
Not a 750 but when I built my 850 for the Featherbed frame I had Ivan Tighe in Brisbane (a well known cam builder) built up my stock cam and regrind to the 2S cam profile, the extra lift did fit the case just without any grinding of the cases, I machined my original followers flat on a surface grinder and my head was shaved because it was warped a bit and I am running 40thu flat Hepilite Pistons but the final bore to piston clearance was done a bit tighter than recommended and the first 100 miles was done on a very cold night in winter, I am running my original valves but new springs and guides, ports where cleaned and opened up and my crank balanced for the Featherbed frame, this was done in 1980 and I am still running the same set up to this day.
The 2S cam works pretty good on a street bike and I can putter around in 4th gear at 40 mph around the suburbs without any problem any slower I need to downshift to 3rd but open the throttle up and as soon as it hit 4000 rpm it just take off and the cam will run freely well past 7000rpms if you let it, it has great mid range torque and up, my original 850 motor use to valve bounce at 6500rpms and lose power, the 2S cam works so well on my bike and made a big improvement to my motor performance, the motor runs so freely you have to be careful to how high you rev it to and it will rev way past 7000rpm, but would you want too as the mid range works so good.
Running a Joe Hunt maggie and well tuned Amals jetted for my motor its the best it has ever run, my old Norton surprises a lot of modern bikes riders and man does it pull a great wheelie and has no problem powering lifting the front wheel off the ground without trying.
I run the stock 19 tooth sprocket up front, and it will cruise on the open road quite happy all day between 70 to 90mph, in fact it loves it.
So I been running this set up in my 850 for 42 years now and I still have a big smile on my dial every time I take it out, it was an everyday rider till 2013 when I brought my new Thruxton, so the Norton is semi retired (like its owner) but still going as good as the day I first built it, its my hotrod toy now.
I built this motor back in the early 80s when still young and money was tight and while building it I got a job at a TEC College (TAFE) where the head was shaved on a milling machine with a made cutter, the lifters were ground on a surface grinder (and I still have the jig we made to do 2 at a time) the cam was sent to Ivan Tighe and he put me onto a gentleman who did the crank balanced and the barrels sent out for the rebore and final hone done at the College and the ports and guide where done at the college under supervise from an old teacher who rode British bikes and the other teacher was a mechanic for a Norton race team back in the days where he lived in NZ, everything else was done by myself, converting my 850 Commando to the featherbed frame using as much as my Commando parts as I could.
So just throwing in a 2S cam without any other work won't do much unless you open everything else to make the motor breath a bit better and of course the pipes need to be opened up.
My motor was built using my workshop manual that had in the last chapter the high performance section and was built to stage one for road use, stage two was for the race track.
At the time its was all about the 750 Commando motors, but I did it to my 850 using its guide and has worked well for my motor and has been very reliable to last this long.

Ashley
2S Cam in standard 750
 
I think the ' Combat ' ' S S ' cam is the early / first Production Racer cam .

If you look at the lift curves , the 4 S seems to be a S S with 1 mm off the heel .

AS there were two base radiuses for cams , that seems logical . THEREFORE ,
If you have a 1000 % o.k. machinist in your pocket , you could 4S the 2S .

As I was fleeced TWICE getting cams ' reground ' ( The Hight & width never matched on the lobes , or anything . So I would have had TWO SINGLES )
I fitted a SS . Clearanced etc . Std hight head & pushrods . Measured 8 : 1 Comp. ratio . But fitted Mk II 32 Amals on custom intakes that FLOWED with
the ports . A continuation of the curve . Rather'n the horrible kinked stock ones . With a STOCK cam it held a XS 1100 with 4-1 to 80 .
Wich is fast enough in suberbia on a friday afternoon . Twice . With the Combat Cam it woulda eat it , IF you got it of the line without messing it up .

THEREFORE theres not a lot wrong with a S S cam in a stock injun. Unlike the carb set up . cording to this https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/roadtests/norton_commando_750_racer68.html
THAT had 30's , so youd get increased gas velocity with the stock ports , enhancing mid range . AND broadened power band without the crankey high compression . Even with the nasty intake
manifolds . THEREFORE you could run adequate Ign. Advance ( I ran 31 on POINTS ( well Maintained & BSA Auto Adv. ) ) so itll go like a scalded cat . If its got glass pac. straight thru pipes .

As the BLOKE SAYS , ye dinnae want anything ta HIT in the follower area . .040 off coilbound at full lift . and other places too . I ran mine at .016 clearance , all . on W&S springs . No Sweat .
 
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2S Cam in standard 750

1969 Norton Commando Production Racer Prototype


This is the prototype bike for the famous, yellow Norton Production racers of 1970-71. Cycle World tested this bike in 1969, when it was equipped with a drum front brake and found it the fastest bike they'd tested to that point. i'm very excited to add this, the father of all proddie racer Nortons, to the collection. It is in substantially the same condition as when it was bought in 1972, with a Quaife 5-speed gearbox , SS exhaust, and original Norton Production Racer front disk brake replacing the gearbox, exhaust and front drum brake that Cycle World tested. The bike was restored in the early '80s


Mister Waters might tell you if its still running 30's , or if maybe t was a typo ? . Id figured the Mk IIs would match the flow of the 33 m.m. Mk 1's of the F - 750 engine spec . Pears they did .
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Id had the intajkes machined to the Mk III ' taper ' type arrangement , as in 32 odd at the gasket face to std 28 or whatever at the start of the bend . A burt like these .
2S Cam in standard 750


Get the picture ! ? . Manifold from a 12 inch ? 1 1/4 bore pipe ' U Bend ' Two actually . NOT the Crushed End .
So the carbs sat up higher aft angled slightly . just Clearing the Frame Cross brace with the choke levers .
DONT ASK what it was like without the choke levers . and NO ticklers .

SO , Itll run fine . And be inclined to keep you on your toes . If youve got GOOD IGNITION It'll run best near 31 B T D C ,
if youre not worried about stock shenanigans . It'll ull better wheelstands too .
 
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