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143MPH 850 MK1 Commando?

Discussion in 'Norton Motorcycles (Modern)' started by Bazz, Jan 11, 2012.

  1. Matt Spencer

    Matt Spencer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010

    The Job Getting to you , Again . Is It .
     
  2. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    I've had 2 Norton twin I had to be careful of throttle to spin out going straight especially on shifts into 2nd and 3rd un-intended and indeed thought it was clutch slip with the squealing til I felt rear squirm so eased up on my aburptness to avoid that little hesitation in increasing rush forward. I lucked out to find the P!! ready to go and then accidental combo on Peel that lasted most of 6 mo till putting in normal recommended full Combat configuration. One thing about having dragster like acceleration into the ton and not having a worry about loosing grip no matter how far leaned or sharp - unless on purpose over powered is how slow motion everyone else seems to be and constant thought out decision to pass in time or zoom into a blind w/o any emergency reserves for hazards. There's a lot more opportunity to do slower safer stunt thrills with tire spin response so I don't see hi power as just racer event use. Yet its not uncommon to hear a salt lake'r lament they didn't have more off road experience. Ever blow up a tire on a burn out? I have on SV650 and great fun so will have to do it on Peel too just for the hell of it, after tire used up of course. Power bikes don't need no stinking brake to start a burn out standing in place, then the pavement painting can begin.
     
  3. Bernhard

    Bernhard

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    Well Hobit the aerodynamics around the screen are to some extent flawed, as this was discussed in the weekly comic the blue ‘un Motorcycle Weekly many moons ago.

    For best results with a fairing you need the top of the screen just below eye level and the top exactly 9inches from your nose.

    No fairing on the market to my knowledge does that.

    I experimented with a flip up BMW R100RS screen to the exact specs. above and found that it worked.
    After making a mould I make a fibreglass handle bar fairing using the BMW flip up screen I found I could ride up to a thee figure speed with the helmet visor halfway open ( this open visor is also acts part of the aerodynamics)
    So, I cloud ride all day with no breeze blowing in my face (well a bit, if I am honest)
    The only time I need to closer the visor completely was when I get behind a rubbish skip vehicle that throws out clouds of dust or a freezing cold day.
    Even in the rain I leave the visor slightly open (cause water comes over the top of the screen)
     
  4. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    I would love to see your windscreen configuration Bernard. I finally did in my huge screen, 2ft over bars and over bar ends and with lowers while bouncing along on THE Gravel. I could light a cigar at any speed or weather but it definitely had a drag factor for top end but nullified sem-trailer and wind gusts like a steering damper. On Peel I cruised about the ton with it but limited top out to about 120 which is about as fast as I'd commute anyway. I'm a bit familiar with streamlining of various sorts and would like to see if this Vesco fairing could help hit higher speeds than w/o it. Mainly its for all weather comfort and stereo. Peel should hit 150 no problemo naked. Munroe had an air bleed low pressure equalizer gap under his windscreen. I've made lexan covers for the recessed holes of the Vesco turn running lights/signals and will affix them with deer whistles to act as vortex generators and look cool and may even alert some deer. There's a bunch of windscreen extensions available to try so I can sit up fully with breeze shooting over helmet but big bugs and hail shoot right through the blast I've found : ( Most the weigh of the big fairing were its steel support frame but that been eliminated by the upper crash cage which will be left on while in public dangers but removed for safer track fun. I'm stewing on how to handle the rear air clashing sucking turbulence and on far over leans that generate ground effects lift/drops that affect vital lean angles. Considering feathers off fork sliders as Peel can feel the effects of those unpleasantly. I know I sound off the wall but no one else has experienced what I have or they'd be talking about it too. It may relate to the racers fairing accommodating drafting turbulence, so have some study on what they've run into. Peel will be able to tuck either end down so that's another weird thing to play with over the ton.
     
  5. Bernhard

    Bernhard

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    The screen is similar to this;
    http://blog.grandprixlegends.com/articl ... r-made_732

    But it is not a full fairing as above, but a sort of handlebar mounted ( clamped to the top & bottom fork yolks)
    It is steeply raked which aids wind penetration and reduces the drag factor, it has no adverse effect on speed or fuel consumption.
    I cannot send pics as I don’t have to date a DVD camera.
    It appears similar to a German WW2 Messerschmitt Bf 109 fighter plane cockpit screen, which is odd, considering the BMW fairing was done by a famous Italian car designer, in a Italian wind tunnel in the late 1970s! (at a cost of cool £2,500 a day in the wind tunnel).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109
     
  6. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    I know what's its like to have too much power with too little will power so half of my thrill of this hobby comes from irrational side scaring the shit out of the wide eye'd unbelieving rational part of me. Can't wait forever to max out the magic of life before the end. I don't have to imagine teeth knocked through back of skull or helmet twisting around almost snapping neck off, let alone dangling limbs. I'm too scared of anything else to spoil the good times involuntarily screaming in awe at the fling forces so easy to do it like holding trigger of a mounted machine gun.

    What ya think of this Cdo functional fashion statement?

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  7. J.A.W.

    J.A.W.

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Hobot, - somehow I dont think Peter Williams would approve...nice candy red Commando otherwise.
    & Matt, isn`t time YOU got a haircut & get a real job? [you could maybe make a quid as a researcher/google-boy,- hey wait, thats your 'work for the dole scheme' now, isn`t it?]
     
  8. Bernhard

    Bernhard

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    Maybe not a bad attempt on fitting a fairing to a Norton. With the fairing being frame mounted, it falls down on having the screen too far away from the rider as is the bodywork to be 100% effective.
    In general, the closer you can get the edges of the screen and bodywork to the rider the better it will be in keeping the wind off the rider.
     
  9. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Makes sense to me Bernard. Facing facts of the matter a Rapid Transit ain't a real racing fairing just sleek all weather protection with places to put lots of do dads. The Vecso mount limits placement with some minor adjustment but on Peel I can move it forward or back and up/dn like a foot or more. I want to be able to leave a headlamp mounted on forks behind the fairing so if I get a wild hair after work I can just undo 4 wing nuts and unplug the hardness to get naked as a Jay Bird for less fling inertia and damage if I go down again by something not my fault beside placing myself in motorcycle danger like we all do. I've run into my human limits to flip bikes one side to the other fast enough but Gravel taught all's ya need to do it let rear spin out to trip right down then fly back up all on it own - up to spme speed there not power enough to spin right out. I've only had two cycles that could do that over 60 mph on pavement, the P!!for 3 yr and ~6 mo's of Peels remarkable accidental combo. P!! in 4th over the ton but Peel only in 2nd, but up 80 mph. This is how I found out the sleeve bushes go dry and burn up. I don't plan on doing much of that with the fairing on but its forward mass may allow more acceleration w/o wheelie, but Peel has repeater Hot Shot Device to stifle that dangerous acceleration limiter.

    We got some good paved slopes here so can do roll down speed and distance tests to see what various changes might do. I've studied up on vortex generators and ways to visualize turbulence. Peel being an out law can even try mounting stuff at rear to slice through wind better and maybe more help to corner hotter. At the speeds i worked up slinging rear out or even off the surface I found myself wishing for down force and drag to keep rear passing too far ahead of hip. Best I can come up with is inverted V tail pivoted on rear loop with wheels on ends so leans tip it the right way to both force rear down and add drag to keep it from so freely wanting to pass ahead of the turn. Hmm maybe a free spin prop off a stalk might add the drag chute effect I want and confuse onlookers even more at my dinosaur bike.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  10. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    A while back when I built my Seeley 850, I found a lot of titanium bolts at an airport. They were out of shelf life parts off the Hornet Fighter. Most of the bolts on my bike are thus titanium. I had one holding the exhaust on. I found that if they come loose and a bracket vibrates on them, they quickly reduce in diameter. Using titanium as pushrods could be a problem if the tappet adjustment comes slack. I think the same might apply to titanium valves.
    When you machine it titanium is very difficult to get on size, it tends to flow and work harden rapidly. Over the years I've seen several misapplications of materials on bikes. One caused the death of a good friend.
     
  11. SteveA

    SteveA VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2011
    Hobot, re the fairing......if ya wanted a BMW ya should have just bought one :wink:
     
  12. chasbmw

    chasbmw

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2011
    The Hillman hunter is still in production, in Iran".".....I saw the machine tools before they were exported, most of them had been made in the US in the 20s and 30s and had already gone through WW11 with 24/7 production, I reckon that the Iranians were screwed.
     
  13. mike996

    mike996

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    I thought this thread had been laid to rest last year...

    I't like Zombies, I guess. They die but just keep on comin'. :)
     
  14. Rohan

    Rohan

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Someone, randomly ?, plonked some titanium bolts in it....

    Does that make someone a plonker ??
     
  15. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    I looked at Ti axles and shafts and big and little fasternes and the stuff it reacts to and its downsides to end up only using Ti on knee and frame sliders for the sparks. Part of my joys of Commandos are the surprises such quint things can go so good - up to a point horsepower speed wise.

    Hehe don't know if more streamlined than naked but bugs and rain and cold is not my thing doing the ton up on commutes listening to boom box stereo sipping coffee while lighting up in comfort. Photo's don't do justice to the bullet shape and seeming over size but what sold me was seeing a race set up H2 triple buzz bomb with identical fairing appearing rather petite and sleek, in a bulbous vintage way of course. H2 are pretty small bike and it really set it off, so should it on Peel. Also flashed back on H2's smoke and chain saw noise. Peels costumes will all be easy on/off so if the obnoxous smug sneering gets too annoying, will peel er down and expect to be some definite wide eye'd double takes viewing little old Peel next to a big ole SR1000 if putting down bets which will be more fun and effective, short of freeway like tracks and flying mile events where just hp vs resistance matters. I am assured Peel will test 18 * 19" tire speed ratings so may have to fit 17" for top end attempts, ugh if I even dare.
     
  16. grandpaul

    grandpaul VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2008
    That fairing is a Don Vesco "Rabid Transit", I'll bet.

    I have one on the shelf, in case I ever build another "Mad Max" bike; they look the part.
     
  17. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Yep Sir Paul and famous enough there's a styling cult of bikers based on the name and the looks. Pretty rare/lucky I snagged one with lowers too boot. Peel's flight avionics and stereo+ front speakers, cig. lighter GPS/radar/video, and weather station will mount in it. Engine and performance gizmo's meters remain on cross braced alloy bars with bark busters. Peel's will have the turn signals replaced with 50 watt driving lights with ring of white LEDS and a stroke light to boot then covered over by lexan like the old sports cars with recessed lights in sloped hoods. These are like Peel's mirrors except her's are in very light weight plastic not steel or alloy.
    [​IMG]

    Check out the scope of Vesco's art deco funcitonal aerodynamic styles here...
    https://www.google.com/#output=search&s ... 07&bih=375
    This ain't your granddad's BMW Vetter Windjammer don't ya know.
    [​IMG]

    If a bike could stay on throttle half again longer harsher thru turns than others, ie: put out & down more hooked up accelerating torque power: how fast would it have to go after turns not to be caught up with in opens within ~half mile/ -20 seconds, by 200 hp rockets limited by wheelie control on how harsh they can accelerate and then have to decelerate before next slight leaning begins that scares them to brake testing limits slowing them up so badly? How fast before I better take laxative and pee pee and duct tape all major joints before attempting?
     
  18. Matt Spencer

    Matt Spencer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010
    This is where RACE TRACKS allow the opertunity to explore the realms of reason , without breaking your neck . at least Most of Them .
    Ones where theres NO WALLS , Trees , Dogs , & preferably no other madmen .

    Therefore , one either pisses of smartly in front , haveing figured out all the lines & explored them in practise .
    OR sits there arms folded , so the fields a tird of a lap out , so as theres no contretempts as to crossed purposes,
    or lines . Tangles & piles of sumersaulting wreckage are thus avoided , and everyone is still friends at the end of the day .

    Still one must watch for things that have gone BANG or putt putt putt and have oiled places or stoped in clouds of steam midtrack
    or to the side .
    Right on your LINE .

    :shock: :idea: :?:
     
  19. SteveBorland

    SteveBorland

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Many years ago Cycle magazine printed an article on predicting top speed of a bike. The result was a nomogram where you selected the rear wheel power, chose a suitable drag coefficient and could then read off the maximum speed. It's all a matter of physics really.
    This supplies the answer as to how Peter Williams was so fast and why you cannot expect the same results from a shopping bike with a great big windshield.
    Must try to find my copy of it and post it.

    /Steve in Denmark
     
  20. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    I've been assured by Ken Canaga Peel's power plant will be more than enough to reach 150. I figure if can hit 160 in about 15 sec or less then may be able to give the 180+ mph bikes a run for the money if there's enough turns vs the opens. There's Oklahoma track ~4 hr away w/o any walls nor gravel traps except for the starting line stands area, just pasture to run out on, which I have on a Texas track out into desert like grass and brush at over 90 mph. I had a quick self talk not treat it like THE Gravel so just rode it down feathering both brakes while locked on bike to keep forks inline with rear enough not be life flighted off like the last guy going off there. There is the Texas Mile only 14 hr from here on Navy run way with half mile slow down before into grass/brush. I think over all Peel's best performance will be stripped mostly naked as I'm pretty skinny 100 mph don't buffet bother me but helmet buffet blurring and air drag become significant to me at 120 so that's when I tuck in if trying to go faster. Often enough I come upon sport bike squads all tucked down and dragging knee's, barely doing the ton, and i wave and nod passing them in opens over 110 sitting bolt upright open jacket snapping and bread and groceries sticking out the iconic milk crate on lug rack. Just more addictive double takes of heads/bodies popping up to read NORTON go by then the megaphone note. Do ya ever think about last thing through your mind tossed off 150 mph. Flash back of hitting track at 120 has made me bolt up in bed screaming. I don't know if I'm up to all that Peel can dish out. Don't think I'll ever afford a land speed type fairing. Peel's forte is acceleration especially on low angles and severe off road and parking lot antics not top speed, but even that should be pretty scary enough for me.
     

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