143MPH 850 MK1 Commando?
- Thread starter Bazz
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worntorn
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Dont forget these runs were at Bonneville, 5000 feet above sea level and on salt which has a drag you can feel just riding a Bicycle over. Then there is the slippage issue. It is a highly variable surface depending on whether rain has occurred recently or not. Comparing Bonneville to runs at Sea Level on ashpalt would be something like comparing a 130 mph IOM lap to a 130MPH Nascar lap, not in the same league.
Red hot rice rockets of all kinds fail to reach anywhere near their Magazine reported speeds when taken to Bonneville. Three years ago the fastest run by a production Superbike was done on an Aprilia, think it was 159 or therabouts. Mal Hewitts Vincent with Terry Prince mods was faster (157) than any of the stock Japanese bikes, including Hyabusas and ZX14s. The only production bike that ran quicker was the Aprilia by 2 mph.
The ones that go really fast, over 200 mph are heavily modified as in supercharged or turbocharged.
So, yes Rollie had to stretch out and Steve had to lay flat- or get blown off the bike!
Of interest Mal Hewitt ran his Vincent at 162mph last year at Bonneville setting a new record in the process.
Here is his run. There is idling until about 1.40 into the clip. I am quite content to listen to the idling as I have essentially the same engine going into my Project bike ,which will be a road bike. The cams are pretty wild looking,so it was nice to hear the bike idle so well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibMu1dBf894
Glen
Red hot rice rockets of all kinds fail to reach anywhere near their Magazine reported speeds when taken to Bonneville. Three years ago the fastest run by a production Superbike was done on an Aprilia, think it was 159 or therabouts. Mal Hewitts Vincent with Terry Prince mods was faster (157) than any of the stock Japanese bikes, including Hyabusas and ZX14s. The only production bike that ran quicker was the Aprilia by 2 mph.
The ones that go really fast, over 200 mph are heavily modified as in supercharged or turbocharged.
So, yes Rollie had to stretch out and Steve had to lay flat- or get blown off the bike!
Of interest Mal Hewitt ran his Vincent at 162mph last year at Bonneville setting a new record in the process.
Here is his run. There is idling until about 1.40 into the clip. I am quite content to listen to the idling as I have essentially the same engine going into my Project bike ,which will be a road bike. The cams are pretty wild looking,so it was nice to hear the bike idle so well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibMu1dBf894
Glen
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JimC said:worntorn said:JimC said:
Raquel Welch, for sure I believe that, but Im having real trouble with the Sophia Loren part. I read somewhere that she would only hang with Duc riders, too good for Nortons!
Glen
Nothing says you can't own a Ducati and a Norton at the same time.
THEY DID , Brothers , 8) Used to wonder where they got to at times .
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worntorn said:
This was discussed here before.
Don't forget that at 5000 ft above sea level, air resistance is less.
Considerably less.
Whether you actually gain or lose or end about the same versus the loss of hp due to thinner air was not firmly established.
However, aircraft speed records are rarely done at sea level...
worntorn
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My point is that that bikes that are run to their top speed on asphalt at sea level do not attain as much speed when run at Bonneville, jetting changes included.
This is an accepted and long known fact for the racers who run up there.
Here is a good article on the subject of traction and rolling resistance at Benneville, put out by the Utah Salt Flats Racing Association, maybe not the Norton Commando forum but at least the next best place to get Salt Flats info
http://saltflats.com/traction.html
Glen
This is an accepted and long known fact for the racers who run up there.
Here is a good article on the subject of traction and rolling resistance at Benneville, put out by the Utah Salt Flats Racing Association, maybe not the Norton Commando forum but at least the next best place to get Salt Flats info
http://saltflats.com/traction.html
Glen
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Youre saying , recalibrated , Bonnevilles the place to be . The thinner atmospheres less drag , but youd need more of it in the cylinders .Presumeably optimum porting / carburation would be in excess of those required in the salt laden sea air
on a still brooding cloudy day / evening .
Per Chance .
on a still brooding cloudy day / evening .
Per Chance .
motorson
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In 1977 I did 110 mph (indicated) on Jamboree Rd. in New Port Beach CA. The bike was a 1970 Fastback with a 22 tooth front sprocket and the RPM was 7000. It was missing a lot so I felt like it could have gone a few mph faster with a good tune up.
Somehow the numbers don't always add up. Like, I had a Honda XL350 which I bored out to 89mm and left the stroke alone (440 cc). Ported the head and it would do 90 mph. Seems impossible but I tried to catch up to it for about 20 minutes in a Toyota Land Cruiser and couldn't.
How in the world did Rollie Free do 150 on that Vincent back in 1949? How much horse power would that thing have had to put out? And if I have my facts straight, the 4 cylinders didn't break that record until the late '70s. (Naked bike, 1000cc)
Cheers!
Somehow the numbers don't always add up. Like, I had a Honda XL350 which I bored out to 89mm and left the stroke alone (440 cc). Ported the head and it would do 90 mph. Seems impossible but I tried to catch up to it for about 20 minutes in a Toyota Land Cruiser and couldn't.
How in the world did Rollie Free do 150 on that Vincent back in 1949? How much horse power would that thing have had to put out? And if I have my facts straight, the 4 cylinders didn't break that record until the late '70s. (Naked bike, 1000cc)
Cheers!
worntorn
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And the Burns and Wright lightning with fairing went 186 back in 1955, not sure how they did that.
Technically the Lightning was a production bike, I guess you could call it a production racer.
Anyone could buy one, if they were willing to pay the price and wait a bit. The man who set the record, Russell Wright was a house carpenter who saved his money up to order the Record Breaker.
When did the first Japanese production machine hit 186, maybe 5 years ago, fifty years after the event?
It is rather amazing when you think about it.
The fastest production machine on two wheels or four, a fact not a slogan!
Technically the Lightning was a production bike, I guess you could call it a production racer.
Anyone could buy one, if they were willing to pay the price and wait a bit. The man who set the record, Russell Wright was a house carpenter who saved his money up to order the Record Breaker.
When did the first Japanese production machine hit 186, maybe 5 years ago, fifty years after the event?
It is rather amazing when you think about it.
The fastest production machine on two wheels or four, a fact not a slogan!
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The Horses were bigger in those days . ( in fact , at the revolutions , the Tourque was a good deal more ) .
http://www.localhistory.scit.wlv.ac.uk/ ... s/HRD2.htm
Intresting stuff , Was looking For Freddie Dixon , the renouned / feared ' tuner ' . Perry spent six weeks of evenings
( Through till 2 a.m. ) Building the Burns wright motor . After haveing visited Irvine / Vincents , after one of his T.T.
Forays. His only motorcyclin injury was a end of a finger awol , after a spill in pracise.Clutch lever took it off at the joint.
Medical attention would have precluded entry , so remained elastoplasted for the event . remember the folded steel
control levers . Chop .
Carefull attention to detail and fits / clearaces and detailing , as advised by Irvine , resulted in it being ' free running ' ,
Not so much modifications to substantially increse output , but attention to detail to reduce losses and smooth operation.
Was built to Lightning Spec. from selected ' Tuneing ' parts ( Camshafts etc ) supplied directly by Irvine . From the Horses
Mouth . ( ' young ' Len Perry , circa 1981 )
http://www.wheelers.co.nz/books/9780958 ... nt-howard/
http://park5.wakwak.com/~yumei/1951R.html
http://www.mnz.co.nz/rollofhonour_1910-1949.aspx
Note the date ; Charlie Goldberg , adjacent , was a enginnering shop instructor at A.T.I. ( Auckland Technical Institute )
The Commando was the high speed commuter machine . 'Never leave the key in the chuck ' Vravraa vrraaa
Just as well he was fairly hard of hearing .Rancontor if you mentioned ' Motorcycle ' , more than one lesson the bell went ,
and He still had the thing in his hand he'd been meaning to instruct us on .
Commando chained to the main stairway between outdoor levels , a suit comes over " Thats a nice motorcycle ,Im the Head of the Facility , come and see me if you have any problems " strides off . :? :shock: :lol:
http://www.localhistory.scit.wlv.ac.uk/ ... s/HRD2.htm
Intresting stuff , Was looking For Freddie Dixon , the renouned / feared ' tuner ' . Perry spent six weeks of evenings
( Through till 2 a.m. ) Building the Burns wright motor . After haveing visited Irvine / Vincents , after one of his T.T.
Forays. His only motorcyclin injury was a end of a finger awol , after a spill in pracise.Clutch lever took it off at the joint.
Medical attention would have precluded entry , so remained elastoplasted for the event . remember the folded steel
control levers . Chop .
Carefull attention to detail and fits / clearaces and detailing , as advised by Irvine , resulted in it being ' free running ' ,
Not so much modifications to substantially increse output , but attention to detail to reduce losses and smooth operation.
Was built to Lightning Spec. from selected ' Tuneing ' parts ( Camshafts etc ) supplied directly by Irvine . From the Horses
Mouth . ( ' young ' Len Perry , circa 1981 )
http://www.wheelers.co.nz/books/9780958 ... nt-howard/
http://park5.wakwak.com/~yumei/1951R.html
http://www.mnz.co.nz/rollofhonour_1910-1949.aspx
Note the date ; Charlie Goldberg , adjacent , was a enginnering shop instructor at A.T.I. ( Auckland Technical Institute )
The Commando was the high speed commuter machine . 'Never leave the key in the chuck ' Vravraa vrraaa
Just as well he was fairly hard of hearing .Rancontor if you mentioned ' Motorcycle ' , more than one lesson the bell went ,
and He still had the thing in his hand he'd been meaning to instruct us on .
Commando chained to the main stairway between outdoor levels , a suit comes over " Thats a nice motorcycle ,Im the Head of the Facility , come and see me if you have any problems " strides off . :? :shock: :lol:
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worntorn said:
Think you are comparing apples with oranges here, thats for sure !
Although they were faster than anything in their time.
I went to the production bike races about 30 years ago, as part of the crew working the timing trap on the straight. They, 1000cc full fairings, were pulling 180+ mph back then.
Lap after lap after lap, not just one good run.
The TZ750, proper racers, were even faster...
And some old Indian sidevalve with a few mods and a cigar fairing did 200+ mph.
But you couldn't buy one....
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" Something doesnt add up " = ' TZs ' being ' Production ' racers . Dont panic , im off for a few quotes .
( cant see the ' rassberry ' icon :? )
F- 750 , Jim Greening .the bike book. NUMBER EIGHT ( Aus ).
Quote;
The basics of Formular 750 are easily understood . ( and we'll have No Insubordination , in the cheap seats )
Simply take a mass produced engine,
and tune it accordingly.
Leave the castings comprising cylinder head(s), crankcases and gearbox basically standard, and you have an easy-to-comprehend raceing formula, give or take some fine print about frames and running gear.Better still, the formula
encourages brand identification among spectators and bike owners .
Everybody knew Yamaha was building 750-fours because the 500-fours had been raceing in the GPs. But nobody realy expected Yamaha to produce 200 TZ700s and get the things homologated before 1974. But Yamaha did, somewhat to the consternation of FIM officers who promptly delved into their files and came up with a piece of paper purporting to claim that the TZ700 Yamaha " is a completely equipped machine sold to the general public; it has complete electrical equipment". As the Geneva Convention mentions silencers , lights and road going equipment generally, the TZ700 was so far removed from legality that the FIM HAD to impose a ban .
Further on
It had no ancestoral line of production bike. But also it had always been difficult to understand why the TZ350cm3 water cooled yamahas were acceptable, when their cylinders and heads could in no way be described as modified from the air-cooled production components.
later
Around Europe in 1974 , only Norton professed a F-750 commitment,and Mr Poore's men HOPED to race with a modicum of sucess untill the Cosworth engine arrived.
End Quote
WE can all see the political & financial ramifications of the Dept. of moveing goal posts . Or was it the Japaese / english Dictionary .
( cant see the ' rassberry ' icon :? )
F- 750 , Jim Greening .the bike book. NUMBER EIGHT ( Aus ).
Quote;
The basics of Formular 750 are easily understood . ( and we'll have No Insubordination , in the cheap seats )
Simply take a mass produced engine,
and tune it accordingly.
Leave the castings comprising cylinder head(s), crankcases and gearbox basically standard, and you have an easy-to-comprehend raceing formula, give or take some fine print about frames and running gear.Better still, the formula
encourages brand identification among spectators and bike owners .
Everybody knew Yamaha was building 750-fours because the 500-fours had been raceing in the GPs. But nobody realy expected Yamaha to produce 200 TZ700s and get the things homologated before 1974. But Yamaha did, somewhat to the consternation of FIM officers who promptly delved into their files and came up with a piece of paper purporting to claim that the TZ700 Yamaha " is a completely equipped machine sold to the general public; it has complete electrical equipment". As the Geneva Convention mentions silencers , lights and road going equipment generally, the TZ700 was so far removed from legality that the FIM HAD to impose a ban .
Further on
It had no ancestoral line of production bike. But also it had always been difficult to understand why the TZ350cm3 water cooled yamahas were acceptable, when their cylinders and heads could in no way be described as modified from the air-cooled production components.
later
Around Europe in 1974 , only Norton professed a F-750 commitment,and Mr Poore's men HOPED to race with a modicum of sucess untill the Cosworth engine arrived.
End Quote
WE can all see the political & financial ramifications of the Dept. of moveing goal posts . Or was it the Japaese / english Dictionary .
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Balderdash .Definately a Conspiracy . Off with their Heads . :wink:
Black Lightning. One Carefull Owner . Only used on Sundays .
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1951-Vin ... 336d16c330
Not to sure Id let the attentions of these blokes on it . :? :shock:
Black Lightning. One Carefull Owner . Only used on Sundays .
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1951-Vin ... 336d16c330
Not to sure Id let the attentions of these blokes on it . :? :shock:
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They banned the R90s from the Castrol 6 hour in Australia because it had...... yes a fairing...gasp.
The R90/6 without fairing was entered and it won...but there were protests...
It had an R90s preload spacer fitted....
( I read this is a BMW article so it may be bias...they even claimed 80 HP from an r75/5)
The R90/6 without fairing was entered and it won...but there were protests...
It had an R90s preload spacer fitted....
( I read this is a BMW article so it may be bias...they even claimed 80 HP from an r75/5)
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72Combat said:
Having ridden a /5 I'd say it's closer to 30...
SteveA
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Matt Spencer said:
So they say...'starts on the kicker', I know I am a picky type, but observation of the photos of the right hand side shows....
The only lever fitted to the gearbox is the neutral finder, no gear lever, no 'kicker'!
And no connection no either of the two rear brake drums either, but I can see how that might be 'optional' on a square tyred 'race bike'.....even if the 'tech inspector' (scrutineer0 wouldn't!