Wobble and Weave

Biscuit · Apr 9, 2014

If any one is still interested in the original "Wobble & Weave topic here's my $.002. When I bought my Commando in '75, I felt I needed some stylin' high bars so got myself some narrowish 8 or 9" high bars, not ape hangers but still...And "the weave" was experienced at just around 75 or 80 mph as I recall. Time went by and eventually I got rid of those stupid things and the disconcerting weave went away with them. They were replaced with a normal, slight rise bar about 28" wide which allowed me to be much less upright and flatter over the tank.
I've noticed that brand new tires, for me anyway, don't wobble with hands off the bars at low speeds. Brand new is the key word here. As the tires wear more and more the bike will wobble more and more "hands off". So I don't ride hands off...What a concept.
Perfect chain alignment is the way I get my Commando to go straight. I use the parallel string method and am very fussy.
Like I said, that's my $.002 worth and that's all I'm spending. Now back to the pissing contest.

Diablouph · Apr 9, 2014

"Now back to the pissing contest".

Yeah, all I said was that this looks interesting. I think next time I’ll post a video on something less controversial like wet sumping.

phil yates · Apr 9, 2014

Biscuit said:
If any one is still interested in the original "Wobble & Weave topic here's my $.002. When I bought my Commando in '75, I felt I needed some stylin' high bars so got myself some narrowish 8 or 9" high bars, not ape hangers but still...And "the weave" was experienced at just around 75 or 80 mph as I recall. Time went by and eventually I got rid of those stupid things and the disconcerting weave went away with them. They were replaced with a normal, slight rise bar about 28" wide which allowed me to be much less upright and flatter over the tank.
I've noticed that brand new tires, for me anyway, don't wobble with hands off the bars at low speeds. Brand new is the key word here. As the tires wear more and more the bike will wobble more and more "hands off". So I don't ride hands off...What a concept.
Perfect chain alignment is the way I get my Commando to go straight. I use the parallel string method and am very fussy.
Like I said, that's my $.002 worth and that's all I'm spending. Now back to the pissing contest.

I guess the only time you can justify hands off handle bars (apart from waiving at two girls walking up both sides of the street, simultaneously) is to indeed check true tracking or wobble. I tried it a few times with my Combat because it did wobble and I was curious to see if sometimes under different road conditions it might not. I NEVER tried it at high speed. The wobble was not a concern to me but I was curious. Apparently Norton knew of it and the next bike along, the 850, had a frame change which cured it. But tracking is a different story. I can't live with a bike that will not track straight, anymore than I could live with my ex wife!
The only experience I have had of it on a Norton was my last 750. A rebuilt machine using an 850 frame. But we cured it with the disc being swapped to the left fork. It then didn't pull, it didn't wobble and it certainly didn't weave.

My current MkIII does none of these things either. Neither will my second one to come, I am pretty damn sure. I've never heard of the "dreaded Norton weave" before here. There must be a whole lot of strange things going on out there that are unfamiliar to me. Like the guy who thinks his primary chain case is causing his bike to pull left. Run that one past me again??? Sheeesh!!

Accurate chain alignment I guess implies correct wheel alignment, all things being equal. But if your bike pulls left (or right) and it bothers you, but you never checked the wheel alignment, then rightly should you suffer!

Diablouph · Apr 9, 2014

"that little hands off oscillation on your combat was another reason the factory kept the wheelbase the same but changed the rake/trail a bit on the 850s for a little more stability"

This is the kind of information I was looking for.

What exactly was the change made to the rake/trail of the front wheel? How is the Mark III different from the Mark I/II?

phil yates · Apr 9, 2014

Diablouph said:
"that little hands off oscillation on your combat was another reason the factory kept the wheelbase the same but changed the rake/trail a bit on the 850s for a little more stability"

This is the kind of information I was looking for.

What exactly was the change made to the rake/trail of the front wheel? How is the Mark III different from the Mark I/II?

I expect their is no difference frame wise in any of the 850's. This is the only one I've had, MkIII. All others were 750's. But last one was built using an 850 frame. No oscillations with.

Rake and trail changes?
I don't know what changes were made, but it sure worked. Someone else will know the technical answers I'm sure.

Nater_Potater · Apr 9, 2014

Diablouph said:
"Now back to the pissing contest".

Yeah, all I said was that this looks interesting. I think next time I’ll post a video on something less controversial like wet sumping.

Or Mikuni carburetors...

phil yates · Apr 9, 2014

Nater_Potater said:
Diablouph said:

"Now back to the pissing contest".

Yeah, all I said was that this looks interesting. I think next time I’ll post a video on something less controversial like wet sumping.

Click to expand...

Or Mikuni carburetors...

It would be a very boring world if we all agreed on an issue.
Just different opinions from different people.
No harm in that!

Hobot · Apr 9, 2014

In my case most hands off is just to monitor tire wear to be aware of what speed to exceed before dealing with mad insects with stingers, summer wind opening zipper till balloon flapping to pull up and once a strong 6 foot black snake on L wrist that just wild one arm flinging was not enough. The resultant antics recovery in time is a permanent freak out surreal memory. My SV650 begins hands off weave near 30 mph. There are laws against it so should never do it but out of necessity.

Diablouph · Apr 9, 2014

phil yates said:
It would be a very boring world if we all agreed on an issue.
Just different opinions from different people.
No harm in that!

I agree, I am just very surprised that the topic took off and the "enthusiastic" responses.

By the way, I found in an old (’04) British Bike Forum, L.A.B. and Ludwig were talking about the changes in the 850.

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthrea ... mber=65050

Some of it a little over my head, but very interesting reading. I wanted an 850 because of the engine with it's thru bolts, etc. Now I have one more reason to own one.

Al-otment · Apr 10, 2014

gripper said:
With the brake calliper behind the RH leg, the weight of the calliper is aft of the wheel spindle. This will make the wheel fall to the right due to the rake of the fork. This turn to the right manifests itself as gyroscopic precession (when the wheel is turning). This is felt at 90 degrees to the input force and in the opposite direction so the top of the wheel is pushed to the left, the bike follows. It is "counter steering" with the input caused by the weight of the calliper. Swap the fork legs over and the weight of the calliper is now, as near as dammit, vertically above the wheel spindle so no input force to start the process.

Loaf……… Cockney rhyming slang……….. loaf of bread………head
Plates………….plates of meat……. Feet
Skin………..skin and blister ………Sister
Threepenny's…………Threepenny bits…….. you work it out.

This does not explain why T140 Bonnevilles don't pull to one side with a rear mounted caliper or why my Mk3 dosen't pull to one side with a caliper mounted on an adaptor plate well forward of the wheel spindle. The brake caliper has nothing to do with gyroscopic precession as the force (torque) it generates on the wheel spindle is tiny. Also a caliper mounted vertically above the spindle still applies a torque to the spindle, albeit very small. An example of gyroscopic precession on a motorcycle is counter steering where the input force to the wheel spindle is generated by the rider pushing on the handlebar which is a very large lever and a very large force in comparison to a brake caliper where ever it's mounted. You'll have to come up with yet another reason as to why your bike weaves and wont go in a straight line.

phil yates · Apr 10, 2014

Al-otment said:
gripper said:

With the brake calliper behind the RH leg, the weight of the calliper is aft of the wheel spindle. This will make the wheel fall to the right due to the rake of the fork. This turn to the right manifests itself as gyroscopic precession (when the wheel is turning). This is felt at 90 degrees to the input force and in the opposite direction so the top of the wheel is pushed to the left, the bike follows. It is "counter steering" with the input caused by the weight of the calliper. Swap the fork legs over and the weight of the calliper is now, as near as dammit, vertically above the wheel spindle so no input force to start the process.

Loaf……… Cockney rhyming slang……….. loaf of bread………head
Plates………….plates of meat……. Feet
Skin………..skin and blister ………Sister
Threepenny's…………Threepenny bits…….. you work it out.

Click to expand...

This does not explain why T140 Bonnevilles don't pull to one side with a rear mounted caliper or why my Mk3 dosen't pull to one side with a caliper mounted on an adaptor plate well forward of the wheel spindle. The brake caliper has nothing to do with gyroscopic precession as the force (torque) it generates on the wheel spindle is tiny. Also a caliper mounted vertically above the spindle still applies a torque to the spindle, albeit very small. An example of gyroscopic precession on a motorcycle is counter steering where the input force to the wheel spindle is generated by the rider pushing on the handlebar which is a very large lever and a very large force in comparison to a brake caliper where ever it's mounted. You'll have to come up with yet another reason as to why your bike weaves and wont go in a straight line.

So we are back to square one?
How about:

Norton could not rectify the problem. So they began a campaign of psychological warfare. They leaked to technically non challenged data nuts that they had cured the problem with a disc side swap. Everybody heard about it and everybody believed them. No one bothered to test it and everyone was happy. But some sceptics in countries driving on the left did test it. Nothing had changed but Norton explained this away as road camber. In America, nobody had noticed it in the first place. Like Hobot, they were too busy tearing rubber off their rear tyre and were never going straight long enough to take their hands off the bars anyway.

And so the greatest lie and deceit ever attempted in the history of motorcycling was successfully perpetrated!

Years after Norton had gone, the intelligent Norton motorcyclists who had not long since killed themselves were asking questions.
Questions to which there simply were no answers!

Sound feasible??

Hobot · Apr 10, 2014

Phil I am annoyed by your reactions to hobot but used to it so actually like your sense of adventure and challenges you bring here. Norton did exactly what you describe concerning the mythical Superblend-Save-The-Day bearing upgrades to solve Combat Bomb reputation. Both my 36K+ and my 25+K Combats had pristine flat rollers I sent to a nit picker to examine to make sure. If ya make a claim to help others that no one else can figure out or has experienced like your brake side switch then you are seen as a fool just rationalizing your extra effort as worth while.

phil yates · Apr 10, 2014

hobot said:
Phil I am annoyed by your reactions to hobot but used to it so actually like your sense of adventure and challenges you bring here. Norton did exactly what you describe concerning the mythical Superblend-Save-The-Day bearing upgrades to solve Combat Bomb reputation. Both my 36K+ and my 25+K Combats had pristine flat rollers I sent to a nit picker to examine to make sure. If ya make a claim to help others that no one else can figure out or has experienced like your brake side switch then you are seen as a fool just rationalizing your extra effort as worth while.

Annoyed??
I've been nothing but loving and kind.
When you go to the psychiatrist, please don't start talking about yourself in the third person.
We likely won't hear from you for a long time.
And that would be a shame.

Oh the superblend bearings certainly did exist alright. I got a set of them for free after mentioned Combat destruction.
Maybe you were just unlucky and missed out. Somebody in here might think it's possible but I never believed main bearings had any bearing (no pun) on wobbling and weaving, or even left pulling. So I'd better get off this subject before anyone complains. Not that I started it!

pete.v · Apr 10, 2014

It does not matter what side the brake is on. After fine tuning wheel offsets, tire balancing and a straight edge across the front and rear wheels, I attained a pure no hands ride. Solid, tight, and smooth with the PR headsteady.

I swapped my brake from right to left along with tire rotation and is just as a tight,solid and smooth no hands ride as it was when the brake was on the right not to mention under heavy braking.

Offset, tire balance and pressure, wheel alignment, and balance within the iso system are all key and weakness in any area may produce a negative result. If there is a keystone to this smooth, tight, solid feel, it is the PR headsteady along with the validated offsets.

Simply put, I can't make' it wobble.

phil yates · Apr 10, 2014

pete.v said:
It does not matter what side the brake is on. After fine tuning wheel offsets, tire balancing and a straight edge across the front and rear wheels, I attained a pure no hands ride. Solid, tight, and smooth with the PR headsteady.

I swapped my brake from right to left along with tire rotation and is just as a tight,solid and smooth no hands ride as it was when the brake was on the right not to mention under heavy braking.

Offset, tire balance and pressure, wheel alignment, and balance within the iso system are all key and weakness in any area may produce a negative result. If there is a keystone to this smooth, tight, solid feel, it is the PR headsteady along with the validated offsets.

Simply put, I can't make' it wobble.

Interesting Pete
But swapping front brake from right to left was never going to cure a problem you say you never had in the first place.
Huh??

My original Combat had a right side disc (as did they all) but it did not pull left! It is not a memory loss thing. I know it didn't pull as I can't bear this flaw in a motorcycle. I would never forget it.

But my last 750 Roadster built by Pete Lynch had a right side disc and it DID pull left. We checked everything but all was in order.
I was baffled and pissed off, to say the least. Then I read this tiny paragraph in some technical notes stating all right side disc Commandos pulled left. I knew this wasn't true from my first Combat, which tracked dead straight with right disc. But having exhausted all other possibilities it was worth a try.

Pete pulled out the forks and reversed everything. He was extremely sceptical but bingo! Bike then tracked dead straight and everybody lived happily ever after. The only thing not tracking straight was my marriage which eventually veered wildly and hit a telegraph pole!
Amen.

So I don't know why the inconsistencies Pete, just that the brake side swap certainly cured my left pull recalcitrant hand built Commando. It never did show any inclination to wobble or weave, before or after the brake side swap. But it was an 850 frame so it seems Norton had fixed the earlier 750 wobble with the frame change. As for weaving? I have never ever experienced the phenomenon, so would hardly be any authority on the subject. Not that I'm an authority on anything. I can only draw from my own experiences.

pete.v · Apr 10, 2014

phil yates said:
Interesting Pete
But swapping front brake from right to left was never going to cure a problem you say you never had in the first place.
Huh??

My original Combat had a right side disc (as did they all) but it did not pull left! It is not a memory loss thing. I know it didn't pull as I can't bear this flaw in a motorcycle. I would never forget it.

But my last 750 Roadster built by Pete Lynch had a right side disc and it DID pull left. We checked everything but all was in order.
I was baffled and pissed off, to say the least. Then I read this tiny paragraph in some technical notes stating all right side disc Commandos pulled left. I knew this wasn't true from my first Combat, which tracked dead straight with right disc. But having exhausted all other possibilities it was worth a try.

Pete pulled out the forks and reversed everything. He was extremely sceptical but bingo! Bike then tracked dead straight and everybody lived happily ever after. The only thing not tracking straight was my marriage which eventually veered wildly and hit a telegraph pole!
Amen.

So I don't know why the inconsistencies Pete, just that the brake side swap certainly cured my left pull recalcitrant hand built Commando. It never did show any inclination to wobble or weave, before or after the brake side swap. But it was an 850 frame so it seems Norton had fixed the earlier 750 wobble with the frame change. As for weaving? I have never ever experienced the phenomenon, so would hardly be any authority on the subject. Not that I'm an authority on anything. I can only draw from my own experiences.

Simply, Dr Watson, a matter of preference. It was just a statement of experience referring to the effect of swapping the brake. There is no difference. Just an addition to the topic. No need to dissect. No hidden agenda. Put the paranoia aside. I'm not that other guy.

gripper · Apr 10, 2014

Al otment, Simon, I merely suggested a theory as to why the Commando may pull to the left. I haven't had a pulling to the left issue at all. I have sorted my weave out quite simply. It's a secret though. The Shropshire NOC meeting tonight attracted a very experienced racer of Triumphs, Nortons and Tritons. He confirmed my thoughts on weave. I'll let this thread run for a bit and maybe give you my threepenneth.

phil yates · Apr 10, 2014

Simply, Dr Watson, a matter of preference. It was just a statement of experience referring to the effect of swapping the brake. There is no difference. Just an addition to the topic. No need to dissect. No hidden agenda. Put the paranoia aside. I'm not that other guy.[/quote]

Paranoia??
I'm enjoying the discussion. Haven't had so much fun since I saw granny get her tits caught in the wringer, all those years ago

You are against outrageous odds Pete. Right to left brake swap will and does make a difference, if you suffer a left pull problem when everything else is aligned and you have a straight frame. Trust me, I am a used car salesman! Well, not really.

But the biggest fix for you Pete would be a MkIII purchase. I know deep down you love the beast but jealously guard your secret.
You are a closet MkIII lover and may need to be sent to the psychiatrist along with that "other guy".

But I didn't tell you that.

Keep smiling Pete. One day you will burst out into the sunlight, astride a handsome MkIII.
I made the transition and never looked back.

But that's not to say I'm not gay. No idea of the value of that comment. Perhaps a new thread, Poofters Pull Left?

phil yates · Apr 10, 2014

gripper said:
Al otment, Simon, I merely suggested a theory as to why the Commando may pull to the left. I haven't had a pulling to the left issue at all. I have sorted my weave out quite simply. It's a secret though. The Shropshire NOC meeting tonight attracted a very experienced racer of Triumphs, Nortons and Tritons. He confirmed my thoughts on weave. I'll let this thread run for a bit and maybe give you my threepenneth.

I have forgotten which was your theory gripper. Was yours about primary chaincases? Or main bearing wear, or was that mine?

There is only one correct theory, and that is mine! And I don't tell anyone what to do unless they don't do what I tell them to.
Well something like that.

I don't really care what makes a Commando wobble, weave, pull or have to be started with your leg, like a horse.

My MkIII doesn't do any of these things and as an enlightened one I can only tell you that you are not yet in nevanah if you but have not one.

If you are still riding a prototype, it is time to progress forward.

highdesert · Apr 10, 2014

You are a closet MkIII lover and may need to be sent to the psychiatrist along with that "other guy".

who is this "other guy" that you seem to think needs to see a psychiatrist?

no need to hide anything here, go ahead and name him

in addition, why don't you knock off the high school level talk, like a "granny getting her tits caught"
or talking about how you released your side car so your girl friend would get hit by oncoming traffic

nothing "funny' about that, well obviously to you, but this is a pretty classy forum, let's keep it that way..

Wobble and Weave

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