Wobble and Weave

phil yates · Apr 8, 2014

hobot said:
Well phil if I made sense to anyone then I wouldn't be so eager to define corner cripple with Peel project. The skeletal vintage hill climbers I saw at a rally floored me with their tiny Chevy orange tanks and levels so loose they swung freely, so when I saw similar tank in my buddy's bone yard I grabbed it. Something only Peel can use though as her forks need the extra swing room. As long as the front tire in traction it affects steering and ya can steer whole bike on front as stunters do but consider how important the front is when cycle power lifts it out of traction in turns or off the surface. Kieth Code showed us his NO-HANDS cycle like you describe, with grips on the windscreen but forks about clamped straight ahead so impossible to steer. This is his proof the front steers the bike.

That was my inspiration to work up body slams that steered in direction forks pointing but if hands on bars bike wil steer same turn by counter steering. When I cross THE Gravel about 40 mph or cause a cycle to lean over on its own w/o help of the forks the forks snap into straight steering. I ran into another hint d/t slow rear leaks so front got better direction authority than rear for dangerous handling with sense of front fighting rear rather than assisting it. We are both right in that most the time its like you say while in others its opposite like I say. I can tell ya one thing for sure if ya try to only do it your way, stay off THE Gravel and grass with any spirited purpose. If ya can hunt down trail riders with camera showing bars and direction of aim when just going straight down a trail you'll see partly what I mean. Safe exploring a long time for all of us.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX2QP06lKZM[/video]
We are both right, either end or both can steer cycles.

Keith was right. You can't steer it and you will fall off unless you keep going straight forever. I was not talking about alternative steering techniques. Even Houdini could get out of otherwise scientifically impossible situations.

My only riding is road riding. I did a bit of off road stuff for awhile, out in the bush. But falling off all the time was not my cup of tea, guess I never got good at it. Certainly steering in those situations is an entirely different ball game.

Phil

phil yates · Apr 8, 2014

1up3down said:
Has every Commando you've owned had a disc brake right side, behind fork leg? If so, I have some news for you. If not, they must have been all bent.

Click to expand...

no, Phil

my 71 had a drum front, my 72. 73. and 74 had the disc on the right side, and my 75 Mark3 on the left side

ok, I suppose I happened to buy, new, all the "bent" ones, such is my luck, that what you are saying Phil?

and by being bent, apparently you conclude that my contention of Commandos being weighted "left" is invalid and thus you have some "news for me"

well go ahead, oh gifted one, give me the news, educate me .....

You bought one new Commando per year from 72 on?
Perhaps you were trying to get a straight one??
I wasn't trying to be smart. I'm sure they weren't bent
and the only news I had for you was that apparently
ALL right side disc brake Commandos pulled to the
left, for somewhat unknown reasons. I didn't invent
this, it was news from English NOC technical, which
I read many years ago. It is not entirely consistent
but I have experienced exactly that. And cured it with
a disc side swap, magic result. So I can't help you like
I hoped I could. It certainly is not my experience that
all and every Commando pulls to the left, I am on my
fourth and none do. I've had drum and disc versions.

I can't imagine what the cause of your problem is or was.
Are you sure you are not riding the bikes standing on the
left peg? Or perhaps have a very heavy left kidney?

I just don't know 1up3down. In Oz, riding on left side of road,
road camber will eventually steer you slightly left if you are
testing your steering hands off.
But that is obviously not your issue.

Phil

gripper · Apr 8, 2014

With the brake calliper behind the RH leg, the weight of the calliper is aft of the wheel spindle. This will make the wheel fall to the right due to the rake of the fork. This turn to the right manifests itself as gyroscopic precession (when the wheel is turning). This is felt at 90 degrees to the input force and in the opposite direction so the top of the wheel is pushed to the left, the bike follows. It is "counter steering" with the input caused by the weight of the calliper. Swap the fork legs over and the weight of the calliper is now, as near as dammit, vertically above the wheel spindle so no input force to start the process.

Loaf……… Cockney rhyming slang……….. loaf of bread………head
Plates………….plates of meat……. Feet
Skin………..skin and blister ………Sister
Threepenny's…………Threepenny bits…….. you work it out.

Fullauto · Apr 8, 2014

I'll put them out of their misery.

No Nookie No Ride Home.

1up3down · Apr 8, 2014

again

while the location of the disc and caliper can be a consideration in why a Commando tends to the left,

imo, the far bigger reason is that the entire left side of bike is more weighted than the right, the clutch, triplex chain and primary, in addition to the left side rear sprockets and chain

in addition, Commandos sold prior to 1972 did not have discs, they had drums, and as I stated, they also pulled to the left, at least the ones I owned and ridden with friends

I did not buy a Commando every year back then to get rid of a "bent' one, lol

I bought them because I was crazy about Nortons, liked the Norton girls on the inside cover of Cycle,
and so bought a new one every year, ok?

phil yates · Apr 8, 2014

1up3down said:
again

while the location of the disc and caliper can be a consideration in why a Commando tends to the left,

imo, the far bigger reason is that the entire left side of bike is more weighted than the right, the clutch, triplex chain and primary, in addition to the left side rear sprockets and chain

in addition, Commandos sold prior to 1972 did not have discs, they had drums, and as I stated, they also pulled to the left, at least the ones I owned and ridden with friends

I did not buy a Commando every year back then to get rid of a "bent' one, lol

I bought them because I was crazy about Nortons, liked the Norton girls on the inside cover of Cycle,
and so bought a new one every year, ok?

You can buy as many Commandos as you want.
Okay with me.
But read the posts properly
And do something about your sense of humour.

I have acknowledged that ALL your Nortons pulled left, disc or otherwise.
But your theory is invalid.
If you were correct, ALL Commandos would pull left!
Not just yours, or your friends which you rode.
Not ALL Commandos pull left!

Sounds to me like there must be something in your water.

phil yates · Apr 8, 2014

Fullauto said:
I'll put them out of their misery.

No Nookie No Ride Home.

For us it was:

No Naughty No Ride Home.

But same same.
On occasional Friday nights, it actually worked!
But these days I just look at pictures of Naughty
Norton Girls!

Not really, Jenny is now my Naughty Norton Girl.
More gorgeous than any of the originals

Hobot · Apr 8, 2014

gripper » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:37 pm
With the brake calliper behind the RH leg, the weight of the calliper is aft of the wheel spindle. This will make the wheel fall to the right due to the rake of the fork. This turn to the right manifests itself as gyroscopic precession (when the wheel is turning). This is felt at 90 degrees to the input force and in the opposite direction so the top of the wheel is pushed to the left, the bike follows. It is "counter steering" with the input caused by the weight of the calliper. Swap the fork legs over and the weight of the calliper is now, as near as dammit, vertically above the wheel spindle so no input force to start the process.

Now that some food for thought gripper. Its a factor I could detect on Peel but don't know its magnitude in relation to the loop sided L had weight bias and chronically bent components or rear tire offset a tad to L too. After experimenting which side on Combats took less effort or was faster to fling I found its slightly easier faster to the LH, which agrees with common L drift tendency for what ever reason or 3. Its so subtle though i had to pay close attention whether just imagining it or not. Online searches for other cycle drifting reveal them doing it either side with a handfull of different causes & solutions as magical as switching front brake side over axle or not.

Phil up to some threshold you and Code are correct forks are about only way to steer plus some help by body english - hanging off. If you ever get to press a power on turn far over til front leaves the surface yet bike don't do anything different just tends to sharpen turn more you'll see fork dependence in a new light. I could only pull this off on Peel as the Vtwin and inline moderns would skip front or rear out from under at worse times. I've yet to crash on fast pavement turns [but countless times on THE Gravel at jogging speed or less till I changed steering concept] but mostly pure luck with franic nothing to loose antics. There are all kinds of conditions that can snatch ya down going straight head when weave wobble hits out the blue.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT2PfFN_B5o[/video]

Its takes some time to shift body over to one side and more time to move body all the way to the other side in chaicanes switch backs. I tired that

phil yates · Apr 8, 2014

hobot said:
gripper » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:37 pm
With the brake calliper behind the RH leg, the weight of the calliper is aft of the wheel spindle. This will make the wheel fall to the right due to the rake of the fork. This turn to the right manifests itself as gyroscopic precession (when the wheel is turning). This is felt at 90 degrees to the input force and in the opposite direction so the top of the wheel is pushed to the left, the bike follows. It is "counter steering" with the input caused by the weight of the calliper. Swap the fork legs over and the weight of the calliper is now, as near as dammit, vertically above the wheel spindle so no input force to start the process.

Click to expand...

Now that some food for thought gripper. Its a factor I could detect on Peel but don't know its magnitude in relation to the loop sided L had weight bias and chronically bent components or rear tire offset a tad to L too. After experimenting which side on Combats took less effort or was faster to fling I found its slightly easier faster to the LH, which agrees with common L drift tendency for what ever reason or 3. Its so subtle though i had to pay close attention whether just imagining it or not. Online searches for other cycle drifting reveal them doing it either side with a handfull of different causes & solutions as magical as switching front brake side over axle or not.

Phil up to some threshold you and Code are correct forks are about only way to steer plus some help by body english - hanging off. If you ever get to press a power on turn far over til front leaves the surface yet bike don't do anything different just tends to sharpen turn more you'll see fork dependence in a new light. I could only pull this off on Peel as the Vtwin and inline moderns would skip front or rear out from under at worse times. I've yet to crash on fast pavement turns [but countless times on THE Gravel at jogging speed or less till I changed steering concept] but mostly pure luck with franic nothing to loose antics. There are all kinds of conditions that can snatch ya down going straight head when weave wobble hits out the blue.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT2PfFN_B5o[/video]

Its takes some time to shift body over to one side and more time to move body all the way to the other side in chaicanes switch backs. I tired that

A Combat trike is the answer for you. Designed for Norton by Urna Semper.
But the company crashed before it was released.
It was intended for riders around the 60 yr mark.
Like me.

Hobot · Apr 8, 2014

Ugh I made hard points on Peel for a 3rd wheel hack to keep from getting knocked over so often. Those side car guys still have fun while steering funny ways around too w/o leaning rig much either.

phil yates · Apr 8, 2014

hobot said:
Ugh I made hard points on Peel for a 3rd wheel hack to keep from getting knocked over so often. Those side car guys still have fun while steering funny ways around too w/o leaning rig much either.

I had a Norton with a quick release side car. I also had a girlfriend at the time I did not at all like.
On a high speed turn I pulled the lever. Girlfriend and side car disappeared into the on coming traffic.
Never saw either of them again.
After that, the steering improved dramatically and my new girlfriend sat on the back.
She never made a peep!
Not after hearing the fate of the previous one!

There are many ways to improve the steering of your Norton.
And your love life.
This was just one of them.

dennisgb · Apr 8, 2014

phil yates said:
After that, the steering improved dramatically and my new girlfriend sat on the back.

Did the pull to the left stop after that too?

phil yates · Apr 8, 2014

dennisgb said:
phil yates said:

After that, the steering improved dramatically and my new girlfriend sat on the back.

Click to expand...

Did the pull to the left stop after that too?

I had the side car mounted on the right, so I could catapult it and her into the traffic!
We ride on the left side of the road over here.

Definitely turns to the right improved, dramatically!!

dennisgb · Apr 8, 2014

phil yates said:
dennisgb said:

phil yates said:

After that, the steering improved dramatically and my new girlfriend sat on the back.

Click to expand...

Did the pull to the left stop after that too?

Click to expand...

I had the side car mounted on the right, so I could catapult it and her into the traffic!
We ride on the left side of the road over here.

Definitely turns to the right improved, dramatically!!

Oh, forgot about left side of the road...Norton's over there pull to the right.

phil yates · Apr 8, 2014

Oh, forgot about left side of the road...Norton's over there pull to the right.

[/quote]

Only if you obey the law. To cure the pull, I ride on the right side of the road.
My bike doesn't wobble and weave, it ducks and weaves. You have no choice
with all the on coming traffic, coming straight at you!

phil yates · Apr 8, 2014

phil yates said:
1up3down said:

again

while the location of the disc and caliper can be a consideration in why a Commando tends to the left,

imo, the far bigger reason is that the entire left side of bike is more weighted than the right, the clutch, triplex chain and primary, in addition to the left side rear sprockets and chain

in addition, Commandos sold prior to 1972 did not have discs, they had drums, and as I stated, they also pulled to the left, at least the ones I owned and ridden with friends

I did not buy a Commando every year back then to get rid of a "bent' one, lol

I bought them because I was crazy about Nortons, liked the Norton girls on the inside cover of Cycle,
and so bought a new one every year, ok?

Click to expand...

I forgot to ask.
You say you bought a new Norton girl every year.
1up3down, that is very excessive.
What happened to the discarded ones?

Matt Spencer · Apr 9, 2014

Having seen a chap ride down a twisty hill on a 72 Triumph as a lad , ' We ' knew this was faesable !

Therefore . . . Well , . . . you can imagine . Needless to say its esyer rideing a motorcycle Cross Handed , than a push bike . But niethers recomended .

Hands Off on A GSX 1100 itll veer to the left in a right hander as it hits the level concrette bridge surface which is level , when your going downhill .
Thus it pays to be quick on the reflexes when its necesary to take a grab .
Apparently they used to play ' last ones a chicken ' skydiveing . And learnt to GRIP the D ring prior to ' the last moment ' .

THUS , a COMMANDO Hands Off , To be vertical you shift your butt to the right a little , as the CXHAIN CASE assembly is out to The LEFT . and needs a counterweight . You .
This basically explains it. The ' pull to the left ' if you think about it .
Likely worse on L H D roads with the Camber of the Road Surface , where R H D the Camber would tend to Counter it .

P. S. if your a hands off chap with a Commando , youll find its in the Knees .

phil yates · Apr 9, 2014

Matt Spencer said:
Having seen a chap ride down a twisty hill on a 72 Triumph as a lad , ' We ' knew this was faesable !

Therefore . . . Well , . . . you can imagine . Needless to say its esyer rideing a motorcycle Cross Handed , than a push bike . But niethers recomended .

Hands Off on A GSX 1100 itll veer to the left in a right hander as it hits the level concrette bridge surface which is level , when your going downhill .
Thus it pays to be quick on the reflexes when its necesary to take a grab .
Apparently they used to play ' last ones a chicken ' skydiveing . And learnt to GRIP the D ring prior to ' the last moment ' .

THUS , a COMMANDO Hands Off , To be vertical you shift your butt to the right a little , as the CXHAIN CASE assembly is out to The LEFT . and needs a counterweight . You .
This basically explains it. The ' pull to the left ' if you think about it .
Likely worse on L H D roads with the Camber of the Road Surface , where R H D the Camber would tend to Counter it .

P. S. if your a hands off chap with a Commando , youll find its in the Knees .

No one said you can't steer a motorbike hands off. It appears your first sentence is saying it can be done. Of course it can.

But if whilst hands off your Norton pulls to the left, or anywhere for that matter, it has NOTHING to do with primary chain case position etc.
You have a steering issue which is NOT common to all Commandos. Suggesting it is inherent in the motorcycle is utter crap.

Why doesn't mine do it? Or many many others??
They all have the same weight distribution.

You can't take one experience, being your own, and conclude that it is the case for all.

I tried to explain this to 1down3up but he appeared not to want to hear it.

batrider · Apr 9, 2014

Dunno. Mine pulls left too and has since new.

phil yates · Apr 9, 2014

batrider said:
Dunno. Mine pulls left too and has since new.

Looks to me like you have a 72 Combat with disc on right fork.
So no wonder it pulls left. But if you've had it since new, you
obviously don't mind. Swap disc to left leg, with calliper forward
of fork - and bingo, no more pulling. As per endless previous posts!

Wobble and Weave

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