Wiring connectors

JimC · Jun 21, 2019

Hortons Norton said:
Is it true helicopters don't have soldered wiring? Thought I read that somewhere.

Nor planes, autos and MOTORCYCLES!

texasSlick · Jun 21, 2019

ludwig said:
Don't solder.

My Atlas bullet males have the wires soldered in. Since I am the original owner, I can attest they came from Norton like that.

Soldered connections will fail due to vibration IF the soldered components vibrate independently of each other. For example, consider an electrical component solder mounted to a PC board. If the board is subjected to vibration, the board and component will vibrate, each being influenced by its' mass and rigidity, and the solder joint will most likely fail. However, encapsulate the board and component in potting compound, the assembly is forced to vibrate as one mass, and the joint is not likely to fail.

A male bullet with a soldered in wire, subjected to vibration, is not likely to fail as the bullet, solder, and wire within the bullet are one common mass, and will vibrate together. If any failure occurs, it will be where the wire enters the solder, because the wire is being constantly flexed back and forth, relative to the bullet, and the wire breaks from metal fatigue. Such a failure will occur even if the bullet is crimped, and prevention is simply dressing the wires properly, so as to prevent relative motion between the connector, and the wire itself.

One caveat: Never tin a wire, then crimp. Crimp first, then solder is OK. The first is guaranteed to fail, even without vibration, because the soft solder flows, relieving the crimp pressure.

Slick

o0norton0o · Jun 21, 2019

Read those articles carefully and they say things like, "IF you use the right materials a crimped connection has greater conductivity than a soldered connection, then mentioning the superiority of a crimped "copper to copper" connection as the wire and connector material. I doubt a single person here has a bare copper connector anywhere on their bike other than possibly the battery terminal connector OR the starter terminal connector. All the blade and bullet connectors are not bare copper. The other thing mentioned as superior was "gold plated crimped connectors" to bare copper wire. I'm sure nobody has any of those on their commando.

The "crimp is better" authors go on to say that the worst thing about solder is that it holds the wire firmly at it's terminus so it's more likely for the wire to break at a solder joint... That's just nonsense. the harness should be zip tied so it's supported, and it doesn't flail around against it's solidly fixed end. Making an argument that the soldered connection is worse than crimped because the connection of the wire to the connector is stronger makes zero sense...

If you ask me, If all I did was crimp connectors, then I would also use dielectric grease in the crimp to keep oxidation and dirt away from the connection. Solder joints connections don't oxidize or corrode internally. I also like bullet connectors inline because I can solder the connectors, dielectric grease the connector joints and enclose the entire joint in heat shrink tubing which seals out contamination while it supports the connectors and wires.

Next time you look inside one of your computers, tell me how many solder joints you see in there.

I've always had old vehicles my whole life, crimped terminal oxidize, as does any metal exposed to the air. I'd rather solder and risk breakage at the connector than only crimp and worry about corrosion.

I want to hear a better argument against soldering. If you ask me, those articles were saying "Crimping works good enough", not that soldering doesn't also work good.

marshg246 · Jun 21, 2019

I detest the jumble of wires under the tank on a Norton so when I rewire one, I eliminate it. First, there are quite a few wires that go nowhere and are obviously not needed for the bike you have. The rest are mostly due to the wiring from the handlebar controls connecting to the main or headlight harnesses or simply connecting the main and headlight harness together.

I make one harness and the handle bar controls terminate in the headlight shell. Very few wires exit the harness under the tank.

This will give you a better idea of what I mean: http://gregmarsh.com/MC/Norton/Norton_1972_Wiring.aspx however, this bike used Tri-Spark, PODtronics, and a horn located near the battery.

On Nortons I've repaired where I didn't make a new harness, I unplugged the wires to nowhere and covered the bullets with heat shrink. Then wires that were in a connector for no good reason, I spliced and covered with heat shrink. That left quite a few less connectors under the tank and I used new female connectors on those like others have said.

Fast Eddie · Jun 21, 2019

JimC said:
Wrong! Never solder wires that are subject to vibration.

Well I’d say that the JOINT is indeed far superior. The issue, as I understand it, is that the soldered joint is a solid inflexible lump and the heat weakens the wires. So that’s where the vibration comes in to play, leading to a far greater likelihood of broken wires.

However, I’ve soldered wires together before and where they’ve been properly supported etc I’ve never (yet) had one break.

I invested in a large supply of good connectors and a proper crimping tool and have never regretted it.

Onder · Jun 21, 2019

I still use bullets as well. Got a real crimper makes all the difference. Also probably best to use plated bullets not the brass ones over
time the brass ones will no doubt get corroded.

Nater_Potater · Jun 21, 2019

Fast Eddie said:
However, I’ve soldered wires together before and where they’ve been properly supported etc I’ve never (yet) had one break.

I've had one soldered connection break. One. I've had many crimp connections pull apart when attempting to disconnect the cable, and a number of them corrode at the crimp-to-wire junction. Granted, both instances were (possibly) a result of other people's shoddy work habits. After being admonished by the aircraft mechanics school instructor about the perils of soldered joints in high vibration uses, crimped connectors have been my mainstay. To be sure, I use "good" crimpers and crimp connectors (when I can find them). Two things; use connectors that have the added thin metal sleeve to support the insulation, and use crimpers that have a spike to drive a dimple into the connector. Also, pay attention to how that spike is driven in. If the crimp connector is a "rolled" style, make sure the spike is driven in opposite the place where the two ends come together. NAPA has a great blog with pictures to show what I'm referring to.
As for soldering, I'll do that on wires that handle heavier loads. Starter cables, and possibly headlights (or switch to LEDs).

NPeteN · Jun 21, 2019

Everyone can work a crimper, not so much a soldering iron. I find a well insulated, lubricated and supported crimp connection is just fine. If you have the time and inclination for both, sure.

And now that I've added nothing of value to the conversation I'll see myself out.

gortnipper · Jun 21, 2019

Note that the block in the kit I linked is the wrong one once I looked again. The right block for Commandos is this one.

http://www.britishwiring.com/C-336-p/c336.htm

Stuffa · Jun 21, 2019

gortnipper said:
Note that the block in the kit I linked is the wrong one once I looked again. The right block for Commandos is this one.

http://www.britishwiring.com/C-336-p/c336.htm

Unfortunately out of stock

JimC · Jun 21, 2019

o0norton0o said:
Read those articles carefully and they say things like, "IF you use the right materials a crimped connection has greater conductivity than a soldered connection, then mentioning the superiority of a crimped "copper to copper" connection as the wire and connector material. I doubt a single person here has a bare copper connector anywhere on their bike other than possibly the battery terminal connector OR the starter terminal connector. All the blade and bullet connectors are not bare copper. The other thing mentioned as superior was "gold plated crimped connectors" to bare copper wire. I'm sure nobody has any of those on their commando.

The "crimp is better" authors go on to say that the worst thing about solder is that it holds the wire firmly at it's terminus so it's more likely for the wire to break at a solder joint... That's just nonsense. the harness should be zip tied so it's supported, and it doesn't flail around against it's solidly fixed end. Making an argument that the soldered connection is worse than crimped because the connection of the wire to the connector is stronger makes zero sense...

If you ask me, If all I did was crimp connectors, then I would also use dielectric grease in the crimp to keep oxidation and dirt away from the connection. Solder joints connections don't oxidize or corrode internally. I also like bullet connectors inline because I can solder the connectors, dielectric grease the connector joints and enclose the entire joint in heat shrink tubing which seals out contamination while it supports the connectors and wires.

Next time you look inside one of your computers, tell me how many solder joints you see in there.

I've always had old vehicles my whole life, crimped terminal oxidize, as does any metal exposed to the air. I'd rather solder and risk breakage at the connector than only crimp and worry about corrosion.

I want to hear a better argument against soldering. If you ask me, those articles were saying "Crimping works good enough", not that soldering doesn't also work good.

No, the articles didn’t say that. The whole point of not soldering wires is they break when soldered and subjected to vibration.

ashman · Jun 21, 2019

If you have the right crimping tools you will have no troubles with them failing, all my wiring on my Norton are crimp type I have a spring loaded crimper tool that only crimps the connector to the right setting and for the right colour crimp connector, but on my Featherbed I only have 4 main power wires and one earth wire most of my wiring is under the seat, never had any problems with corrosion.
Most crimps fail from over crimping them.

Ashley

JimC · Jun 21, 2019

You ‘solder it’ proponents must be of the same school as those refusing to use a torque wrench. That’s the school of ‘tighten until it strips, then back off ¼ turn’.

o0norton0o · Jun 21, 2019

JimC said:
No, the articles didn’t say that. The whole point of not soldering wires is they break when soldered and subjected to vibration.

Here's what the first article says about soldering:

"1st article" said:
Correctly applied, a solder joint can be strong and offer good conductivity, but a solder joint is also brittle and is prone to failure under continual vibration - Exactly the conditions we can expect in the harsh motorsport environment. This is why we avoid solder joints at all cost in situations where reliability is critical.

The above quote sounds like an "Everybody knows" opinion to me. If the author said that the heat weakens the wire or some measurable scientific property is changed by the solder I would be more open to his statement. I coat the wire with flux, slide it in the fitting and crimp it, then solder it to keep out oxidation. I slide the sheath back over the tail of the connector. Once I make the connection I use a heat shrink tube to keep out corrosion.

2nd article said:
While it may be painful for some people to hear, the reality is that in the automotive industry this has long ago been settled. The gold standard is to (properly) crimp wires where possible. This is what industry does, and what you should do, too. Whether you’re splicing or attaching a terminal makes no difference. To verify this just take a look under the hood and you’ll find hundreds of crimps, but virtually no soldering. As long as you have the right tools, crimping is the way to go.

Seriously, you think that just because it's commercially done by crimping, that proves it's better... So, does that make the Norton production racer head steady not as good as the box headsteady used in production bikes because norton chose the better design,... OR, do you think they chose the one that was less costly to produce?? ANSWER: They gave us the cheap one, not the better design..

The bean counters rule... If 2 methods of doing something are "good enough" for production, the cheaper method is the more likely one that's employed. That's a more sensible argument than "The automotive industry does it this way, so it's the better way,.. Oh, and it's cheaper coincidentally..."

INSULTING JACKASS said:
You ‘solder it’ proponents must be of the same school as those refusing to use a torque wrench. That’s the school of ‘tighten until it strips, then back off ¼ turn’.

That's an insult, not an argument. Are you such a lemming that you believe the unscientific rationale that both of those articles endorse??? How about some science or are we just going to take the "automotive industry does it that way, so it's the best way." as proof?

JimC · Jun 21, 2019

o0norton0o said:
Here's what the first article says about soldering:

The above quote sounds like an "Everybody knows" opinion to me. If the author said that the heat weakens the wire or some measurable scientific property is changed by the solder I would be more open to his statement. I coat the wire with flux, slide it in the fitting and crimp it, then solder it to keep out oxidation. I slide the sheath back over the tail of the connector. Once I make the connection I use a heat shrink tube to keep out corrosion.

Seriously, you think that just because it's commercially done by crimping, that proves it's better... So, does that make the Norton production racer head steady not as good as the box headsteady used in production bikes because norton chose the better design,... OR, do you think they chose the one that was less costly to produce??

The bean counters rule... If 2 methods of doing something are "good enough" for production, the cheaper method is the more likely one that's employed. That's a more sensible argument than "The automotive industry does it this way, so it's the better way,.. Oh, and it's cheaper coincidentally..."

That's an insult, not an argument. Are you such a lemming that you believe the unscientific rationale that both of those articles endorse??? How about some science or are we just going to take the "automotive industry does it that way, so..." as proof?

How about empirical evidence such as the broken wires soldered to the pickup coils on the Boyer ignition? Which, by the way, are dressed with a tie wrap.

Lemming I am not. Are you so block headed you can’t accept that soldered wires subjected to vibration can and will fail?

o0norton0o · Jun 21, 2019

Those wires are soldered to a plate that shakes like crazy with 2 barrel connectors acting like bob weights within an inch of those connections. The solution to that issue isn't to CRIMP the wires to the pick up plate, Is it? So how does that illustrate the superiority of "only crimping"?

I will crimp, solder, and heat shrink, because in my own experience I've had many corroded crimped connections over the years, and zero broken soldered ones. Granted that's just one data point, but it's actual experienced data, not data extrapolated from an assumption made about the industry standard.

JimC · Jun 21, 2019

o0norton0o said:
Those wires are soldered to a plate that shakes like crazy with 2 barrel connectors acting like bob weights within an inch of those connections. The solution to that issue isn't to CRIMP the wires to the pick up plate, Is it? So how does that illustrate the superiority of "only crimping"?

I will crimp, solder, and heat shrink, because in my own experience I've had many corroded crimped connections over the years, and zero broken soldered ones. Granted that's just one data point, but it's actual experienced data, not data extrapolated from an assumption made about the industry standard.

Solder away, fool. Evidently, you are not aware of the fix for the Boyer ignition. In your case, ignorance is bliss.

Wiring connectors

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