Wheel Alignment on my 961.

Update. I set the bike up again with the wheel alignment jigs, and very carefully adjusted the rear wheel back to the factory setting, with the axle sliders the same length from the rear of the swingarm on left and right sides. I turned he front wheel until it was parallel with the rear wheel, and measured the offset at the front between the jig parallels. With this setup, the front wheel is 7/8" offset to the left. In this picture you can see the 1 3/4" gap on the right side of the wheel, while the left side is just touching the jig. Something is clearly not right. :(

View attachment 81230

I was unable to use a tram gauge to check the rear axle to swing arm pivot distance on both sides. I would have to either remove the primary case or make up some offset tooling to do so, and just didn't have the time for that today. Maybe later. I did use straight edges and a digital angle gauge to measure if the wheels were parallel in the vertical axis, and they are off by 0.9 - 1.1 degrees, so something is bent/twisted. I used a pair of bars in the rear axle and the swing arm pivot to check if they were parallel, shown below.

View attachment 81231

They measured off by 0.15 to 0.20 degrees, but my measurement accuracy is in the 0.1 degree range, so those measurements aren't too significant, except to say that the difference in the wheel angles is not from swing arm twist. The rear crossmember in the frame just above the swing arm pivot is also parallel to the rear axle and pivot, at least within my measurement accuracy, and measures 1.0 to 1.1 degrees off from perpendicular to the front tire.

It looks likely from all this that I may have something like a 1 degree or more twist in the steering head. A little simple geometry shows that a 1 degree twist at the steering head would give about 5/8" offset at the bottom of the front tire. That's close enough to my 7/8" measurements to make me suspect it as the primary problem, but I really need some more measurements to be sure. With a little more effort, I could tram the axle to swing arm pivot measurements, and check the sprocket alignment.

This is interesting preliminary stuff, but I'd like a little more accuracy and detail. In the old days, I'd just take it to the local Computrack facility, but they've been out of business for a while now. I just discovered that Race Tech, the suspension gurus here in SoCal have a similar frame checking system called MEGA M.A.X., that can check all sorts of frame dimensions with the bike still mostly assembled. They charge $250 for a complete measurement survey, a not unreasonable amount for the labor time it takes. I'll give them a call tomorrow to see if they can also straighten the frame after measuring it. Their web site only mentions measurements, so I'm not sure if they also do the repairs.

I could borrow my friend's precision adjustable frame jig, but I'd have to completely strip the chassis to use it, and I'm only willing to do that if I'm sure it's needed. I kind of suspect that I'll eventually have to do that to straighten the frame, but I'm still hoping for a miracle.

Ken
Hi Ken , When you had the crash , was there impact to the front end ?
 
Hi Ken , When you had the crash , was there impact to the front end ?

Hi Tony, there are heavy abarasion marks on the left end of the front axle and nut, so there must have been some impact there. Also damage to the left side headlight bracket, cowl, and handle bar end, and to the right side handle bar and controls. From that, I assume there had to be some impact. I've considered pulling the forks out and checking them for straightness. I have several things I could check at this point, and I'm trying to sort out the most reasonable order in which to check them.

Ken
 
Ken,
Miracles aside, you definitely appear to have a twist in the head stock. The good news is that it can be fixed, albeit by a specialist with the right gear to do it.
My twist was easily sorted by Motoliner in the UK. This picture shows their rig and how they set up a bike for checking. Note the ‘spike’ fitted through the headstock to check the headstock angle and the lateral braces to the swing arm pivots to hold the frame square in the jig.

View attachment 81233

They did need me to prep the bike to facilitate them being able to put it straight onto their jig. It took me about an hour to remove tank, seat, exhausts and strip front end folding cables etc back along the frame and securing with cable ties.
View attachment 81234

I used their trusted courier to ship it to and fro and spent another couple of hours putting the bits back on. A home check with a couple of straight edges looked good and a trip to the MoT station for a regulation safety check confirmed all was well. No miracles, just a bit of graft, spannering work and the exchange of some ‘beer voucher £s’ All achieved within about 10 days start to finish.
Hope this helps with your solution and it works out as well as my experience.
Good luck
Stuart

Thanks, Stuart. Something like a motoliner would be great, but I don't know of anything like that in my area. The Computrack shop here used to have a similar setup to check and straighten frames, but no more. The only frame straightening shop I know of in SoCal is Dr. John. He's been around for decades, and does great work, but his tools are quite different from the motoliner setup, and rely more on bute force and long levers, and usually require the bike to be completely stripped down to the bare frame. He also straightens forks and yokes, so if I find that to be my problem, I'd definitely head to his shop. There's also a modern frame straightening shop in Sacramento, about 400 miles away, but they also need the bike stripped down to the frame.

Ken
 
Hi Tony, there are heavy abarasion marks on the left end of the front axle and nut, so there must have been some impact there. Also damage to the left side headlight bracket, cowl, and handle bar end, and to the right side handle bar and controls. From that, I assume there had to be some impact. I've considered pulling the forks out and checking them for straightness. I have several things I could check at this point, and I'm trying to sort out the most reasonable order in which to check them.

Ken
Yes , certainly pull the fork tubes , roll them on something flat .
 
Thanks, Stuart. Something like a motoliner would be great, but I don't know of anything like that in my area. The Computrack shop here used to have a similar setup to check and straighten frames, but no more. The only frame straightening shop I know of in SoCal is Dr. John. He's been around for decades, and does great work, but his tools are quite different from the motoliner setup, and rely more on bute force and long levers, and usually require the bike to be completely stripped down to the bare frame. He also straightens forks and yokes, so if I find that to be my problem, I'd definitely head to his shop. There's also a modern frame straightening shop in Sacramento, about 400 miles away, but they also need the bike stripped down to the frame.

Ken
Ken,
Ouch! I appreciate why you are going to such measuring lengths now. A total strip is both time consuming and/or blooming expensive if done at a shop. If you could find one prepared to do it.

I find that in the UK you can get anything easy done almost anywhere but ask for some real work and they all go shy, preferring the insurance write off route.

Good luck and keep the faith.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MAK
Ken,
Ouch! I appreciate why you are going to such measuring lengths now. A total strip is both time consuming and/or blooming expensive if done at a shop. If you could find one prepared to do it.

I find that in the UK you can get anything easy done almost anywhere but ask for some real work and they all go shy, preferring the insurance write off route.

Good luck and keep the faith.
This may help if they are still active.
 

Attachments

  • Wheel Alignment on my 961.
    F8A7C6DC-BD89-4CE9-A2B6-C4A23E3980A6.jpeg
    543.9 KB · Views: 114
Good call, Tony. The fork tubes are indeed bent.

Wheel Alignment on my 961.


Wheel Alignment on my 961.


The question now is if I can get some replacement tubes, or if I have to explore getting them straightened.

The good news is that I might not have to deal with a bent frame. I'll see how it looks after the tubes are replaced/repaired.

Ken
 
Great to finally know where the problem is, but bummer to have bent tubes.
I hope you can source new ones from Olins.
 
Just talked to Dan Kyle about that, and he pulled up the part number for the tubes. None in the US, so he is checking with Ohlins to see if they have any on the shelf in Sweden. In any case, it will be weeks, maybe months before I can have them in hand. I'm going to disassemble the forks and see if the tubes can be straightened. The amount of bend is enough that they might not be fixable. I'll just have to get them to the frame shop and see what they say. Dan suggested I also check the sliders to see if they are straight. Apparently they can also get bent. This is turning into quite an adventure.

Ken
 
Just talked to Dan Kyle about that, and he pulled up the part number for the tubes. None in the US, so he is checking with Ohlins to see if they have any on the shelf in Sweden. In any case, it will be weeks, maybe months before I can have them in hand. I'm going to disassemble the forks and see if the tubes can be straightened. The amount of bend is enough that they might not be fixable. I'll just have to get them to the frame shop and see what they say. Dan suggested I also check the sliders to see if they are straight. Apparently they can also get bent. This is turning into quite an adventure.

Ken
I would really be surprised if you can't get those straightened . Forking by Frank maybe ?
 
Just talked to Dan Kyle about that, and he pulled up the part number for the tubes. None in the US, so he is checking with Ohlins to see if they have any on the shelf in Sweden. In any case, it will be weeks, maybe months before I can have them in hand. I'm going to disassemble the forks and see if the tubes can be straightened. The amount of bend is enough that they might not be fixable. I'll just have to get them to the frame shop and see what they say. Dan suggested I also check the sliders to see if they are straight. Apparently they can also get bent. This is turning into quite an adventure.

Ken
Ask Ollie, normally he has in stock.
The German bikers are bending chassis parts often due the high speeds they can dirve legal on the roads.

Panetone
 
If you remount the forks with the bends either pointing forwards or backwards, ie no bend to the side, and recheck the alignment that will tell you if the misalignment is solely down to the tubes or there is an additional twist in the frame.
 
Those fork stanchions look chunky Ken.
Much of the rest of a 961 chassis looks less so.
I’d be (pleasantly) surprised if that’s all that’s bent.
Best check carefully.
 
Good call, Tony. The fork tubes are indeed bent.

View attachment 81247

View attachment 81248

The question now is if I can get some replacement tubes, or if I have to explore getting them straightened.

The good news is that I might not have to deal with a bent frame. I'll see how it looks after the tubes are replaced/repaired.

Ken
Put your scale / straight edge on the opposite side and see what the camber is.
 
Just talked to Dan Kyle about that, and he pulled up the part number for the tubes. None in the US, so he is checking with Ohlins to see if they have any on the shelf in Sweden. In any case, it will be weeks, maybe months before I can have them in hand. I'm going to disassemble the forks and see if the tubes can be straightened. The amount of bend is enough that they might not be fixable. I'll just have to get them to the frame shop and see what they say. Dan suggested I also check the sliders to see if they are straight. Apparently they can also get bent. This is turning into quite an adventure.

Ken
May want to contact these guys. I know they specialize in harleys, but he’s a ohlins distributor and ohlins expert.
 
I would really be surprised if you can't get those straightened . Forking by Frank maybe ?
Highly unlikely to be able to straighten them. Nor would I want to even if the could. It’ll never be the same.
 
Short update from Sweden. The stanchions ("inner tubes" on the Ohlins part list) are no longer available from Ohlins. They are discontinued and there is no substitute/replacement part number. The current FG43 traditional style universal forks from Ohlins are their Retro 43 RWU Gold, which look similar to the Norton part (FG3332), but are 25 mm longer, with 130 mm stroke vs. Norton's 110 mm, and have a different hole spacing for the caliper mounts. They use the newer NIX cartridge design, with rebound damping in one leg and compression damping in the other. Previously, Norton has said that they can only supply the complete fork legs, not separate tubes, but I will check with them again, just in case, as well as with Ollie. If I do end up having to buy complete new forks, I would consider going with the newer design instead of original forks from Norton or Ollie. Might as well go with the latest technology.

Ken
 
Highly unlikely to be able to straighten them. Nor would I want to even if the could. It’ll never be the same.

I suspect you are correct, since there appears to be a sharp bend line right at the edge of the lower yoke, not just a gentle bend. If new tubes were available, I wouldn't even consider straightening them.

Ken
 
Ken,

I agree with TonyA.
If you can ensure that the lowers are not bent or damaged, I would call Frank Forks and see if they can provide custom replacement tubes.
847-475-1003
They can produce facsimile tubes for just about any fork.
I used them several times back in my racing days.
Nothing to lose by calling.
 
Back
Top